hockey fans: who's better?

[Triumph36]

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It's not that his teammates wouldn't be good elsewhere without him, but the Sharks sure as hell wouldn't be anywhere without Thornton, and that's why I think he's more valuable than Lecavalier. Albeit without Vinny, TB stinks too but they wouldn't worsen as much as the Sharks would without Thornton.

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Huh? The Sharks have Patrick Marleau, and a ton of terrific young players who could fill in for Marleau on the 2nd line.

The Lightning's second line center would probably have to be Vaclav Prospal or Chris Gratton, who hasn't been a second line center in 10 years. They have no depth at any position already.

Which lineup would you rather have?

Michalek-Marleau-Cheechoo
Clowe-Pavelski-Bernier

or

Prospal-Richards-St. Louis
Perrin-Gratton-J. Ward

hmmmm

[g-bebe]

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It's not that his teammates wouldn't be good elsewhere without him, but the Sharks sure as hell wouldn't be anywhere without Thornton, and that's why I think he's more valuable than Lecavalier. Albeit without Vinny, TB stinks too but they wouldn't worsen as much as the Sharks would without Thornton.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? The Sharks have Patrick Marleau, and a ton of terrific young players who could fill in for Marleau on the 2nd line.

The Lightning's second line center would probably have to be Vaclav Prospal or Chris Gratton, who hasn't been a second line center in 10 years. They have no depth at any position already.

Which lineup would you rather have?

Michalek-Marleau-Cheechoo
Clowe-Pavelski-Bernier

or

Prospal-Richards-St. Louis
Perrin-Gratton-J. Ward

hmmmm

[/ QUOTE ]

where in my post did I ever say SJ would be worse than TB? they wouldn't be as good as they were with thornton, but they'd still be miles ahead of tampa if they both lost their stars

[grando]

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I went Thornton/Lecavalier.

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[THAY3R]

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I went Thornton/Lecavalier.

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WHYYYYYYYYYYY

[Triumph36]

g-bebe:

how in the world can you say sj is worse off? that doesn't make any sense except but to compare their lineups. tampa bay's lineup is significantly worse off - none of their 2nd line players belong on a 2nd line. richards is the only thing that makes it a halfway decent line.

and tampa bay got no points from their 3rd or 4th line players in the playoffs.

[rafiki]

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I went Thornton/Lecavalier.

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WHYYYYYYYYYYY

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because better and more valuable don't mean the same thing. That's common knowledge in most awards systems. See NBA MVP. The reason why Nash would win over BETTER players.

[THAY3R]

So your reasoning is because people are retarded?


Seriously, give me a valid reason why the better player isn't more valuable.

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
So your reasoning is because people are retarded?


Seriously, give me a valid reason why the better player isn't more valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

in hockey it might be true, because of the nature of lines. when your first line center goes out, you not only need someone to replace him, you need someone to replace his replacement. this isn't really true in baseball and isn't that important in football.

this may not be different from having 1 99 VORP player and 8 0 VORP guys vs 9 11 VORP players - but there does seem to be something different about the situation.

[Requin]

Seriously this argument is silly. Look at the numbers:

Lecavalier:

Year Team League GP G A Pts +/- PIM Shots Sh%
2006-07 Tampa Bay NHL 82 52 56 108 +2 44 339 15.34
2005-06 Tampa Bay NHL 80 35 40 75 0 90 309 11.33
2003-04 Tampa Bay NHL 81 32 34 66 +23 52 242 13.22
2002-03 Tampa Bay NHL 80 33 45 78 0 39 274 12.04
2001-02 Tampa Bay NHL 76 20 17 37 -18 61 164 12.20
2000-01 Tampa Bay NHL 68 23 28 51 -26 66 165 13.94
1999-00 Tampa Bay NHL 80 25 42 67 -25 43 166 15.06
1998-99 Tampa Bay NHL 82 13 15 28 -19 23 125 10.40


Thornton:

2006-07 San Jose NHL 82 22 92 114 +24 44 213 10.33
2005-06 Total Bos/SJ NHL 81 29 96 125 +31 61 195 14.87
2003-04 Boston NHL 77 23 50 73 +18 98 187 12.30
2002-03 Boston NHL 77 36 65 101 +12 109 196 18.37
2001-02 Boston NHL 66 22 46 68 +7 127 152 14.47
2000-01 Boston NHL 72 37 34 71 -4 107 181 20.44
1999-00 Boston NHL 81 23 37 60 -5 82 171 13.45
1998-99 Boston NHL 81 16 25 41 +3 69 128 12.50
1997-98 Boston NHL 55 3 4 7 -6 19 33 9.09


Thornton hit 100+ in his 6th year, and has got 100+ 3 times in 9 years. Lecavalier hit 100+ in his 8th year, and his next best is 78.

Thornton averaged 73.3 pts per year, if we don't include his gross rookie year its 81.6 over 8 years. Lecavalier averaged 63.75 points per year, if we take out his slightly better rookie year it's 69 points per year over 7 years.

[rafiki]

A team with a superstar goalie who gets into the playoffs on the strength of him alone = most valuable to his team.
If he is not on that team, they don't get in.

Meanwhile some stude centre that gets 130 points, has his team win the presidents cup. He gets injured 7 games. In those 7 games they go 6-1 without him. He's the best player in the league. but he's not the most valuable to his team.