Question regarding moving up in stakes...

[NickyC]

Hi everyone,
I've been lurking on these forums for years, but this is my first post. I never bothered registering because hey, what the hell could little old me add that nobody here already knew? Anyway, I'd really appreciate some advice if you don't mind taking the time to answer.
Quick background on myself. I started playing poker about 5 years ago. I am strictly a LIMIT Hold Em player. I have played $1/2 and $2/5 no limit on several occasions, but I never felt comfortable in the games and went back to my low limit LIMIT games.
I have never played a limit game above $5/10. I have however played $5/10 with overs on countless occasions, so I have to admit the highest level I have really played is $10/20. I'd say 90-95% of the time however, I play $3/6 or $4/8 limit hold em. $5/10 is my game of choice, but it rarely runs except for on the weekends at my local Casino.
Anyway, over the past 18 months, I have run up a poker bankroll of around $20k playing just the limits I mentioned above. I play poker generally 2-3 nights per week, and from anywhere to 5-8 hours at a time. My bankroll is ONLY for poker, and is completely separate from paying bills, shopping, etc. I have had dreams all along of moving up in the limits, and I think I'm ready to take a shot.
Anyway, my main problem is one of confidence. The limits I want to move up to are $20/40 and $30/60 limit hold em. Since you don't know me, I have to let you know I am not a gambler by nature. I play no casino games other than poker. I have never even played a slot machine, and one time at the blackjack table was enough to convince me it's just for suckers. Hell I don't even buy lottery tickets.
The problem I'm having is that since I am used to just pushing $6-20 out per bet, I'm really worried that when I start pushing $40-60 I'm going to be nervous as hell and look like a complete novice bafoon. (Not that I'm not a complete novice bafoon, just that I don't want to be outwardly seen as one).
What I'd like is advice on whether or not I should even move up in limits. Is $20k enough to take a shot at these higher limits, or do I need more? As well, I play a more tight, passive game of poker. Since I'm not a gambler by nature, I pick my spots very carefully. In fact, I won't even play at a game with less than eight players. I have sat and watched the games I am considering joining (30/60), and have noticed that these games play much more aggressively than I am used to. I'm used to seeing flops for the minimum preflop bet at 3/6, but often times I'm seeing 3/4 bets preflop at 30/60. Do you think my game is suited for this type of style?
While I wouldn't say I'm a good poker player, I do have dealers/players ask me all the time why I haven't moved up in limits. I've even had dealers offer to stake me in the bigger games at a 50/50 share. I'd never borrow money from anybody however, I want to do this all on my own.
So please, any advice you have time to give me would be great. As well, this is strictly for live poker. I don't play online. Thanks so much!

[7ontheline]

Why don't you just move up to 10/20? It's not like you HAVE to jump to 30/60. Dabble in 20/40 when the game looks good. Each level up usually takes a little bit of time to get used to - it's likely to get more aggressive, as you said. Still, as long as your game is solid and you learn to adjust to the game conditions you should be fine. Soon enough you'll get used to looking at the chips as bets and not as "OMG $120 that's so much" and you'll be fine. If you're winning consistently at low limits, you will guaranteed be better than quite a few players in the higher games. If you're willing to take a shot, then by all means hit up the bigger games when the action looks good - worst thing that happens is you take a loss and grind it back up. If you're really that risk-averse though, maybe you should go up slowly - it might be really frustrating if you start losing because of the mone involved.

[NickyC]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you just move up to 10/20? It's not like you HAVE to jump to 30/60. Dabble in 20/40 when the game looks good. Each level up usually takes a little bit of time to get used to - it's likely to get more aggressive, as you said. Still, as long as your game is solid and you learn to adjust to the game conditions you should be fine. Soon enough you'll get used to looking at the chips as bets and not as "OMG $120 that's so much" and you'll be fine. If you're winning consistently at low limits, you will guaranteed be better than quite a few players in the higher games. If you're willing to take a shot, then by all means hit up the bigger games when the action looks good - worst thing that happens is you take a loss and grind it back up. If you're really that risk-averse though, maybe you should go up slowly - it might be really frustrating if you start losing because of the mone involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey thanks alot for the advice! As for HAVING to move up, I really do. My local casino spreads two limit games. $3/6 and either $20/40 or $30/60. There is nothing inbetween! So as you can see, I'm sort of getting thrown into the fire here and I am a bit concerned. I'll definitely consider your advice, thanks again!

[DeathDonkey]

Hi Nicky,

I can tell from your first post that you have the right mentality to do well in poker. You need not worry about your "non-gambler" nature, as in my experience, players with that attitude are able to separate risking a largish amount of money at poker, from the mentality that takes control when you play a -EV game.

That said, from what I know of you from your post, I think it would be a mistake to jump into a 20/40 or 30/60 game anytime soon, because you are not prepared to play well in the game, and you will take a loss in your first session at those levels very hard, which can easily happen no matter how well you play or poorly they play.

Instead what I highly recommend is this: you need to expand your poker horizons and become more comfortable playing in a way besides "tight passive" which you hinted is the way you play currently, and I am certain is true. The games you play in now are good enough that you will certainly win playing this style of poker, but you won't win as much as you could, and you won't win with this style in most 30/60 games (not to mention the higher stakes will cause you to play even more tight and more passive - a bad thing). Have you thought to yourself why it is you won't play less than 8 handed? Does it feel too much like gambling when you enter the pot with more marginal hands preflop? To this I would say you need to realize that gambling with a 75% edge or gambling with a 51% edge does not change the fact that you are gambling when you play poker. If you understand poker theory and your fundamental beliefs are strong and correct, you will play correctly in both a 75% edge and 51% edge situation. If you don't believe this then you need to read more on poker theory until you do (I'm sorry to be a bit condescending but without knowing your poker background and education I want to cover all bases).

The best way you can prepare for the increased aggression you will face in a 30/60 game is to play in shorter handed games at limits you are comfortable with, and to practice playing in a more loose and aggressive style to simulate conditions where your edge is not as large. Think of playing this way in your current 5/10 game as a cheaper education than you would get in the 30/60 game, even if you reduce your edge in the game temporarily by doing so. You MUST be comfortable in these situations if you want to progress in the long run. Everyone has poker goals, if you want to play 30/60 and beyond you have to get outside of your comfort zone to reach new levels of understanding and profitability. You have $20k worth of tools to aid these goals, and you need to start thinking that even if that number is reduced in some way as you expand your horizons, the long term benefit of improvement and ability to play in larger games will overcome any short term loss.

-DeathDonkey

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
As well, I play a more tight, passive game of poker. Since I'm not a gambler by nature, I pick my spots very carefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

Picking your spots is fine but you may find picking your spots to be different at 20 and 30 than at 3-6. And I really don't think that tight/passive is going to cut it at all. You've got to get rid of the passive part. If this would make you play scared money I don't think it's a good idea. You've got to 'sack up' and be aggressive in those games. Others are going to be and you'll have to be also. Since you want to give it a try I'd say take $5,000 and have a go at it. If you blow it you can resume your LL grind that's gotten you this far.

[npknhldr]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you thought to yourself why it is you won't play less than 8 handed? Does it feel too much like gambling when you enter the pot with more marginal hands preflop? To this I would say you need to realize that gambling with a 75% edge or gambling with a 51% edge does not change the fact that you are gambling when you play poker. If you understand poker theory and your fundamental beliefs are strong and correct, you will play correctly in both a 75% edge and 51% edge situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The best way you can prepare for the increased aggression you will face in a 30/60 game is to play in shorter handed games at limits you are comfortable with, and to practice playing in a more loose and aggressive style to simulate conditions where your edge is not as large.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.
Like u, where i am it's 4/8 or 20/40. So instead of learning the hard way, expand your horizons. Push yourself out of your comfort zone. This can be accomplished by setting goals, like never limping for an entire session, or playing min. 4 hands per orbit. Contrived yes, and -ev in the short term, but think of them as simply cheap lessons.

Lord knows you have the patience (building 20k at 4/8), but tight passive nit play at MLHE will only show a fraction of a BB/hr in profit long term (assuming expert play fost flop). Become better at postflop play, not just relying on your pf decisions to show a profit. Focus esp. on your hand reading skills. This will prepare you for 20/40.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Nicky,

I can tell from your first post that you have the right mentality to do well in poker. You need not worry about your "non-gambler" nature, as in my experience, players with that attitude are able to separate risking a largish amount of money at poker, from the mentality that takes control when you play a -EV game.

That said, from what I know of you from your post, I think it would be a mistake to jump into a 20/40 or 30/60 game anytime soon, because you are not prepared to play well in the game, and you will take a loss in your first session at those levels very hard, which can easily happen no matter how well you play or poorly they play.

Instead what I highly recommend is this: you need to expand your poker horizons and become more comfortable playing in a way besides "tight passive" which you hinted is the way you play currently, and I am certain is true. The games you play in now are good enough that you will certainly win playing this style of poker, but you won't win as much as you could, and you won't win with this style in most 30/60 games (not to mention the higher stakes will cause you to play even more tight and more passive - a bad thing). Have you thought to yourself why it is you won't play less than 8 handed? Does it feel too much like gambling when you enter the pot with more marginal hands preflop? To this I would say you need to realize that gambling with a 75% edge or gambling with a 51% edge does not change the fact that you are gambling when you play poker. If you understand poker theory and your fundamental beliefs are strong and correct, you will play correctly in both a 75% edge and 51% edge situation. If you don't believe this then you need to read more on poker theory until you do (I'm sorry to be a bit condescending but without knowing your poker background and education I want to cover all bases).

The best way you can prepare for the increased aggression you will face in a 30/60 game is to play in shorter handed games at limits you are comfortable with, and to practice playing in a more loose and aggressive style to simulate conditions where your edge is not as large. Think of playing this way in your current 5/10 game as a cheaper education than you would get in the 30/60 game, even if you reduce your edge in the game temporarily by doing so. You MUST be comfortable in these situations if you want to progress in the long run. Everyone has poker goals, if you want to play 30/60 and beyond you have to get outside of your comfort zone to reach new levels of understanding and profitability. You have $20k worth of tools to aid these goals, and you need to start thinking that even if that number is reduced in some way as you expand your horizons, the long term benefit of improvement and ability to play in larger games will overcome any short term loss.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

What a kick ass post.

Jumping from 5-10 to 20-40 is a helluva jump. It can be a tough adjustment just doubling the limit, much less doing it by 4x.

If it were only 1/2 a limit, or double, I might say take a buy in and take a shot. See what you think. But that big of jump could shellshock you. Especially if you take a nice hit right off the bat. It would be much more than you'd lose in a single session of 5-10.

There will be an adjustment period. Just gettin used to the monetary aspect of it alone. Eventually you'll get over it. The bigger the jump, the longer it will likely take.

b

[Nate.]

NickyC --

It looks like you have a good attitude. Good luck to you.

I was ready to write something, but it looks like I should just refer you to DeathDonkey's excellent post.

--Nate

[william288]

10-20 is the most important limit i think you need to spend a lot of time on it before moving up.
from 10-20 to 20-40/25-50 is not so difficult.
30-60 will create another little bit problem.

[NickyC]

Wow, thanks everyone for the awesome posts. A special thanks as well to Death Donkey, that post helped me incredibly.

The amazing thing is, reading everything you guys have written pretty much affirms what I have been feeling inside. The idea of getting used to playing more aggressively at lower limits even though I may lose some monies in the meantime is great advice I believe. It also appears that the overwhelming opinion here is that I am not ready to move up in limits. Maybe take a shot at $20/40 for a bit, but forget $30/60. Since you guys play these limits all the time and know a helluva lot more about poker than me, I am certainly going to defer to your opinions. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help, it means alot to me.

So what should my gameplan honestly be? Honestly try to be more agressive and play more hands at the lower limits for awhile? I think npknhldr had some awesome ideas, such as don't limp anymore. I believe one of my many bad playing habits is limping in early position with strong hands such as KQ suited etc. I also think I'm going to just watch the $20/40 game more. Maybe make myself more comfortable with the style of play before I actually put my money in action there.

Once again, I really appreciate the help and if anybody here ever comes to Harrah's in St. Louis, let me know. Dinner and drinks are on me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]