NL $50 JJ on river

[Racketeer]

River betting is Villain 65/2/.7
I was fearing SB more than this guy, what now?
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG with :j [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] :j [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: :5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] :5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] :2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($2)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

Turn: :8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($8)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

River: :7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($23)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $23, SB folds, Hero???

[Rollos]

Call preflop is horrible, raise it up. As played fold river, UTG probably has a boat or trips.

[cobb0716]

It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here. Villain could be limping with so, so many hands that crush you right now with a VPIP of 65. He could have any 5, some weird two pair hand, or even a rivered straight. Super easy fold.

You gotta raise those jacks preflop man.

rc

[Racketeer]

[ QUOTE ]
It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, thats why I checked the river in hopes to see a showdown. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible, I think most of it's value will come from flopping a set. Sometimes I raise but it's not automatic.

[cobb0716]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, thats why I checked the river in hopes to see a showdown. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible, I think most of it's value will come from flopping a set. Sometimes I raise but it's not automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a prime example of why limping with jacks is terrible. You most likely had the best hand preflop, but you choose to limp and allow a ton of hands to see a cheap flop. You flop an overpair which seems great, but due to the super wide range you allow villain to have you have no idea where you are.

Additionally, if you are playing hands for set value thats more incentive to RAISE preflop, not limp. When you do hit your set, you want to be playing for stacks. It is very, very hard to get someone's entire stack in the middle on an unraised flop.

[Racketeer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, thats why I checked the river in hopes to see a showdown. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible, I think most of it's value will come from flopping a set. Sometimes I raise but it's not automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a prime example of why limping with jacks is terrible. You most likely had the best hand preflop, but you choose to limp and allow a ton of hands to see a cheap flop. You flop an overpair which seems great, but due to the super wide range you allow villain to have you have no idea where you are.

Additionally, if you are playing hands for set value thats more incentive to RAISE preflop, not limp. When you do hit your set, you want to be playing for stacks. It is very, very hard to get someone's entire stack in the middle on an unraised flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you raise all pocket pairs in early position? Under that logic you would be. I don't think Jacks are easy to play in a raised pot oop. Like I said I do both limp and raise but it isn't automatic.

[thac]

Jacks are easier to play in a raised pot OOP than in a 4-way unraised pot OOP. What are you putting villains on that they would call two streets that you beat? A flush draw and wired pairs lower than yours are possible, but wouldn't a pair raise somewhere? Most likely the turn since there are now two flush draws out there, but he just called - he's not scared of a thing - and the psb on the river proves it. He either has 22 or 88 here and I'm pitching it. When you limp here, you're basically turning your hand into 22 and are playing it for set value only IMO.

[cobb0716]

[ QUOTE ]
So do you raise all pocket pairs in early position? Under that logic you would be. I don't think Jacks are easy to play in a raised pot oop. Like I said I do both limp and raise but it isn't automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a word, yes. Obviously I'm not going to do any one thing 100% of the time because I have to mix up my game, but much more often than not I am.

rc

[Racketeer]

I think JJ is a better hand for flopping a set in EP. Even if it isn't I'm pretty sure I am not losing very much value from it. If I wasn't in EP I would raise almost every time, its not like I limp with this hand from everywhere.

[RAHZero]

[ QUOTE ]
I think JJ is a better hand for flopping a set in EP. Even if it isn't I'm pretty sure I am not losing very much value from it. If I wasn't in EP I would raise almost every time, its not like I limp with this hand from everywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are losing a TON of value by not raising this up PF. Jacks are very likely the best hand out PF, but by limping, you allow your opponents to outdraw you cheaply. Raising forces your opponents to make a mistake PF by calling with a lesser hand, allows you to play your hand much more easily (a raised pot HU OOP is much easier to play than a 4-way unraised pot OOP) and gives you the chance to win stacks when you spike a set. I don't play much FR, but when I do, I'm raising JJ UTG pretty much 99% of the time. I might limp with some lower PPs. Once I get to third or fourth to act PF, I'm raising any PP. Read the 6-max fundamentals post by Tien, which is in the "Essential Selection of uNL" sticky. Yes, it's geared toward 6-max play, but it's also got a good explanation of why you should be raising all PPs PF.