200PLO TP + flush draw overaggressive line?

[Flip-Flop]

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Many reasons for it but 1 one of the primary reasons for me would be to "check where I am" because I expect a set or str8 to repot it because of the 2 spades.

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I don't understand. What good does it do you to know you're against a set or straight if you have to fold?

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Because fold would be the correct decision.
(Talking in general and not about this hand because I didn`t bother to crunch numbers in this particular hand in a case of a repot because none did it)
And thats all you can do in poker.
Make the mathematically correct play.

If you rather play passively and scratch your head on most of the turns and rivers then go ahead.

[2handed]

Flip-flop raising small and then folding to a 3bet is generally pretty bad here. Yes, you are behind against a set or a straight, but why waste 40 bucks to find out with slightly more certainty what is already apparent? What is wrong with calling a small bet with a one way draw to the nuts? You arent scratching your head on random turns, you are usually folding to a big bet. This may seem passive, but trying to get as much of your stack in as possible every time you flop a NFD is not the best way to make money in this game.

[2handed]

you also should realize flip that if you start raising and folding all the time to 3bets, your small raises are going to start being very exploitable for an observant opponent. I would simply widen my 3betting range against your little raises to push you off.

[Flip-Flop]

Well..if it`s apparent to people that the bettor has str8 or a set when he bets lil over half a pot then I must be playing much more aggro games then some of you, because the 12 bucks flop bet doesn`t tell me anything.
He could be betting k high FD for all I know.
Neither the bettor nor the caller are protecting their hands against a flush so I wont put them on the nuts that easily.
Like I said, I`d rather test them then speculate.
And I also never mentioned folding to 3-bets on a regular basis.

[jipster]

Flip Flop - i agree; if either villain has the str with spades then he's 3 betting; leaving you with 7 outs...thus a fold; the str with no redraws might fold or call; leaving you open to bluffing if the board pairs

A set 'might' reraise or fold or call depending on the player....

The point i guess of the 30$ raise (which isnt per chance a 'small' bet as one replier stated; its 3/4 pot) is that it gives you a lot of leeway for further moves and/or free cards; you take control and disguise your hand

[nb; all this is stack dependent of course]

OP - i agree with most of them; don't raise pot here... i like the idea of the 30$ raise at it helps define the others hands and you can act accordingly; don't o it every time tho.

[Vinetou]

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Well..if it`s apparent to people that the bettor has str8 or a set when he bets lil over half a pot then I must be playing much more aggro games then some of you, because the 12 bucks flop bet doesn`t tell me anything.
He could be betting k high FD for all I know.
Neither the bettor nor the caller are protecting their hands against a flush so I wont put them on the nuts that easily.
Like I said, I`d rather test them then speculate.
And I also never mentioned folding to 3-bets on a regular basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

We know that we are pretty much behind here. Would he really bet a naked king high flush draw there? Most villains wouldn't. And what about the caller? Bettor might have two pair and just testing the waters. But if he has two pair and we call him, he probably shuts down on later streets, giving us a free card. I don't understand what information you try to gather by suggesting a raise. If you raise, he has to reraise, and he pushes you off a draw. Unless you actually think your top pair is good, which is probably not. I think I played this overaggressively. I am a noob at omaha, but still: Why do you need information in that spot?

Arguments for raising:
1. to push him off two pair or maybe even a set
2. to get a lot of money into the pot when you are behind. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Vinetou]

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Flip-flop raising small and then folding to a 3bet is generally pretty bad here. Yes, you are behind against a set or a straight, but why waste 40 bucks to find out with slightly more certainty what is already apparent? What is wrong with calling a small bet with a one way draw to the nuts? You arent scratching your head on random turns, you are usually folding to a big bet. This may seem passive, but trying to get as much of your stack in as possible every time you flop a NFD is not the best way to make money in this game.

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I talked a lot of **** but something like this is what I wanted to tell.

[Flip-Flop]

Heh.
This is why I don`t like commenting on hands where reads and some history on the vilians is not mentioned because it means everything.

You would need good reads on both in this hand because they both played like idiots.
If 6-max PLO on stars is this weak maybe I will check it out.

PS: Vinetou can you please post the rest of the hand or PM me the full HH please?
I def want to see what they had.

[2handed]

Raising TO 30 or 35 is a very small raise, it is not 3/4 of the pot. There is 21 in the pot, one guy bets 12, another calls, you can raise it up to 69 here. If it had been heads up, you could raise to 57.

Now raising 35 more would be a medium size raise, since you would be raising to 47, but this is still a high price to pay for information and you are close to committing yourself. Assuming 100bb stacks and if the pot is heads up you are getting 3 to 5 on your call if you are stacking off, so if he has the straight you have price yourself in by putting a quarter of your stack in with you flop raise. You would have to call 150 to win 250, if he has the straight and no blocker you have nearly the right price.

In this particular situation, the caller in front of you on the flop means a lot of the time you only have seven outs or less here since one player will have either a smaller flush draw or a set which has a good redraw on you even if you spike the flush. This fact makes your hand more marginal.

I am if anything too aggressive, and even I would rarely raise here, its just too marginal a spot. The value of 'taking control' in a spot like this is way overrated.
You flopped a medium strength draw, why not play it accordingly, especially when the action allows it.

[2handed]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh.
This is why I don`t like commenting on hands where reads and some history on the vilians is not mentioned because it means everything.


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Sure, a really good read could vindicate raising the flop, but if this is anywhere near your standard play in this spot remind me never to stake you.