Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows discussion thread (SPOILERS)

[mattnxtc]

I think Voldys underestimation of Snape is consistent with his entire existence. He always assumes that he is smarter and more powerful than everybody else and that of course is his downfall. He underestimates Snape, Harry, and everyone else causes him to miss out on a lot of magic.

[rustyspeedy]

The things that most irked me

1. Never seeing any other attempts at 'spells without speaking', although it seemed a rather important part of HBP.

2. General problems with the 'undefeatable' wand. However, I've followed different rabbit-holes of logic and can somewhat resign myself to that one.

3. The portrayal of Snape. I realized, as I'm sure most others had, that the root of Snape's problems with James Potter were related to Lily. However, when we find out more about Snape, I was hoping that he was becoming more of a great 'chessmaster', much like Dumbledore. In HBP, we learn that even in school he was a good enough wizard to begin INVENTING spells, which means he had some kind of further knowledge of magic than Hermoine in her best moments. He was also able to parry Harry's spells when he was fleeing Hogwarts, while everyone else basically just jumps out of the way. I think most everyone had realized that Snape was not going to end up as a 'bad guy' and to keep him so far removed from the final story, apart from the none-too-pleasing memory scene (which felt like a cop-out), seems nearly unforgiveable.

4. The lack of more complicated spells. We learn in the bar(or coffee shop?) scene that there is such a thing as 'magical theory', which explains how spells are created and what-not. In OotP, we see a glimpse into this world of more complicated magic in the abbreviated duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort. However, beyond the magical sphere around Nagini, we don't really get to glimpse into that kind of thing again. It seemed like it was generally the same curses/magic throughout.

5. As someone else mentioned, the use of the dark arts. It had seemed like it was a big, life-changing, soul-darkening experience to use them, but Harry fires off the imperius and crucio curses with little regard and no consequence. He uses it even in front of McGonogal, whose real reproach wasn't even about the dark arts.

I loved the series but the ending, as I've seen, could have been little but disappointing, no matter how great it was. The self-sacrifice scene made the book for me, of course.

[mattnxtc]

I think the thought of an "unbeatable" wand was more of a myth than anything else. Think about it. Even in the fairy tale the wand fails to protect the oldest brother who eventually is killed anyways.

I agree...I would love to see her right a book about snape and his entire life. That would be a great book. I have a feeling his story could be as interesting or more interesting than Voldy and Harry

I think the issue with the Dark Arts was that you have to have enough hate within you to pull of a decent magic spell. Harry initially pulled off teh very weak one b/c he wasnt all that angry, but then towards the end when he is full of hatred unleashes a powerful crucio curse.

[Jazzy3113]

I thought the Prince's Tale, made up for the lack of Snape action, but I wish we could have seen him in action during the Hogwarts battle. He would be fighting off the Order, while not trying to injure them and hex Deatheaters subtly. It could have been sweet.
What I would really love more than a Snape backstory ( which we kida got) is a DD history. He invented spells, became Wizengot leader, dueled Grinweld, and eventually became headmaster.
JK had said she will be writing in some backstories and definitively mentioned Dean Thomas's back story.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
The things that most irked me

1. Never seeing any other attempts at 'spells without speaking', although it seemed a rather important part of HBP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hermione uses non-verbal spells when they're sneaking into the Ministry.

[KneeCo]

I agree that Harry's use of the Cruiciatis curse was odd and didn't feel right at all.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
The things that most irked me

1. Never seeing any other attempts at 'spells without speaking', although it seemed a rather important part of HBP.

2. General problems with the 'undefeatable' wand. However, I've followed different rabbit-holes of logic and can somewhat resign myself to that one.

3. The portrayal of Snape. I realized, as I'm sure most others had, that the root of Snape's problems with James Potter were related to Lily. However, when we find out more about Snape, I was hoping that he was becoming more of a great 'chessmaster', much like Dumbledore. In HBP, we learn that even in school he was a good enough wizard to begin INVENTING spells, which means he had some kind of further knowledge of magic than Hermoine in her best moments. He was also able to parry Harry's spells when he was fleeing Hogwarts, while everyone else basically just jumps out of the way. I think most everyone had realized that Snape was not going to end up as a 'bad guy' and to keep him so far removed from the final story, apart from the none-too-pleasing memory scene (which felt like a cop-out), seems nearly unforgiveable.

4. The lack of more complicated spells. We learn in the bar(or coffee shop?) scene that there is such a thing as 'magical theory', which explains how spells are created and what-not. In OotP, we see a glimpse into this world of more complicated magic in the abbreviated duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort. However, beyond the magical sphere around Nagini, we don't really get to glimpse into that kind of thing again. It seemed like it was generally the same curses/magic throughout.

5. As someone else mentioned, the use of the dark arts. It had seemed like it was a big, life-changing, soul-darkening experience to use them, but Harry fires off the imperius and crucio curses with little regard and no consequence. He uses it even in front of McGonogal, whose real reproach wasn't even about the dark arts.

I loved the series but the ending, as I've seen, could have been little but disappointing, no matter how great it was. The self-sacrifice scene made the book for me, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about the Unforgivable Curses. The other stuff doesn't bother me a whole lot.

I'm kind of surprised at how bothered so many of you are by the plot holes and the somewhat contrived and cliche plot devices used to wrap up the story. It's an epic quest of a very traditional form. There aren't that many ways to end it satisfactorily without being fairly predictable.

Plot holes, to me, are not worth dwelling on. It's a book about wizards and witches. A lot of things are gonna happen that don't stand up to much scrutiny, but why bother scrutinizing in the first place? I happily suspend my disbelief when I encounter these little patches. They're just not that important to me.

It's the characters, who are so textured, so endearing and so compelling, that pulled me into this story from the start. Harry, Ron and Hermione are three of my all-time favorite fictional people.

Harry's march to his death was deeply powerful of course, but there were several other moments in this book that came close to matching it for me.

-- Hermione's devastation when Ron left the camp. We'd never witnessed her in such a state of misery and despair.

-- Ron's struggle with the locket Horcrux, as all his years of jealousy, anger, fear and insecurity were laid bare for Harry to see.

-- Harry and Ron's desperate attempts to get free in the Malfoy mansion as Hermione screamed in pain under the Cruciatus Curse. I don't know that I've ever been so angry reading a story.

-- Harry and Hermione at his parents' graves.

-- The scene when Voldemort tells the school he will let them go if they just turn over Harry Potter. Pansy Parkinson yells and points him out, and then all the students from each of the other three houses stand up to face her and defend Harry.

-- Percy returning.

-- Hermione kissing Ron. I'm a sucker I know, but I found this deeply satisfying and very sweet. I love Hermione so much, and I don't mean Emma Watson, who is too pretty and a terrible actress. I might be the only one here who uses the chapter illustrations to form a picture of Hermione rather than thinking of the movie.


The biggest problem I had is the jump from Dumbledore's office to 19 years later. I needed a chapter in between, where we can get some closure from the deaths of Fred, Lupin and Tonks. Couldn't we have had a day for the characters to reflect on all that had happened and to mourn the dead?

Also, I hate Fred dying. I guess it's mainly because I'm an identical twin. I can't imagine how George could go on after such a loss. I'm not sure I could. Just seems strange to make the Weasley family face such a bitter loss and then rob the reader of the chance to grieve with them, especially after we've come all this way.

The story just seemed to end a little too happily and quickly, given all the death and destruction and loss of innocence Voldemort left in his wake.

[rustyspeedy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The things that most irked me

1. Never seeing any other attempts at 'spells without speaking', although it seemed a rather important part of HBP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hermione uses non-verbal spells when they're sneaking into the Ministry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I'll have to go back and look into it. Does anyone remember the spells specifically?


[ QUOTE ]
I'm kind of surprised at how bothered so many of you are by the plot holes and the somewhat contrived and cliche plot devices used to wrap up the story. It's an epic quest of a very traditional form. There aren't that many ways to end it satisfactorily without being fairly predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, it's probably a way of trying desperately to hold on when we all know its over [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].


[ QUOTE ]
Harry and Ron's desperate attempts to get free in the Malfoy mansion as Hermione screamed in pain under the Cruciatus Curse. I don't know that I've ever been so angry reading a story.

[/ QUOTE ]

That scene filled me with a sense of urgency, but not so much anger. I guess it was because I knew they would find some way of escaping. A problem with the contrived portions of the story was that they distracted me enough to draw me away from what I believe was intended.


[ QUOTE ]
Percy returning.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was just too easy, I guess.

It was still a damn good read and a spectacular series, regardless of any problems I find looking back on it.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The things that most irked me

1. Never seeing any other attempts at 'spells without speaking', although it seemed a rather important part of HBP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hermione uses non-verbal spells when they're sneaking into the Ministry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I'll have to go back and look into it. Does anyone remember the spells specifically?


[ QUOTE ]
I'm kind of surprised at how bothered so many of you are by the plot holes and the somewhat contrived and cliche plot devices used to wrap up the story. It's an epic quest of a very traditional form. There aren't that many ways to end it satisfactorily without being fairly predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, it's probably a way of trying desperately to hold on when we all know its over [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].


[ QUOTE ]
Harry and Ron's desperate attempts to get free in the Malfoy mansion as Hermione screamed in pain under the Cruciatus Curse. I don't know that I've ever been so angry reading a story.

[/ QUOTE ]

That scene filled me with a sense of urgency, but not so much anger. I guess it was because I knew they would find some way of escaping. A problem with the contrived portions of the story was that they distracted me enough to draw me away from what I believe was intended.


[ QUOTE ]
Percy returning.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was just too easy, I guess.

It was still a damn good read and a spectacular series, regardless of any problems I find looking back on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's my old fashioned chivalry or sexism or whatever. I just really wanted to kill Bellatrix for hurting Hermione. I wouldn't have felt the same way had it been Ron or Harry in her place. Having said that, I know Hermione is as tough as anyone. I just couldn't stand hearing her screaming in agony at the hands of a woman who could very well torture her into insanity. I definitely didn't consider it a given that Hermione would escape without suffering lasting damage.

Percy coming back was easy, but I had forgotten about him at that point in the story. When he returned I was truly surprised and touched by the reunion. Plus I'm a sucker for people redeeming themselves. It never really gets old to me.

[Oranzith]

I liked it, certainly, but to me the ending was just too fishy. The dream scene with Dumbledore, Voldy dying because of a rebounded spell (what? why do spells on seem to rebound on Voldy and NEVER to anyone else in the series). At the end of the 6th book, we were on the verge of serious mass chaos, as Death Eaters left Hogwarts, DD dead, etc. That feeling didn't really return in the 7th book. It felt like I was reading a movie script with a set ending. I was saddened she actually followed through with making Harry a horcrux, that was blatantly obvious from the 6th book - i wanted a real twist in there.

My serious complaint throughout the entire series is the lack of detail that goes into describing magic in the books. Yes, it leaves much to your imagination, but what is this about Golden Fire randomly shooting out at Voldemort? What? More explanation than IT IS THE ANTI-VOLDY WAND. And the AK curse described as "flashing green light" got old, quickly.

Likely this bias stems from being an avid fantasy reader, pretty much all books in Forgotten Realms, that have D&D as a basis. The magic used in the book was woefully disappointing and unexplained