PF Question

[marchron]

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This is a no-brainer call.

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What about QTs? JTs? J9s? T9s?

I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just wondering.

[MPB]

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i always call this. if the flop comes q23, how are you not feelign good about your hand? you're beating everything except aa, kk, and aq and kq. that's a lot less than half of my utg raising range, at least.

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What exactly are you raisng UTG then?
Given a standard range like TT+, AJ+,KQ you beat only very slightly more than half of this range on a Q23 flop and to you will probably win less against AK unimproved than you lose against AQ?
I definitely prefer calling and flopping TP with JT.

[Watkins]

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But the times you flop this and call down to discover JJ combined with .....

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Against more aggressive opponents I've seen PP's as low as 88. Aaron, assuming a dry flop if you check/raise and are 3-bet and villain proceeds to fire again on the turn & river are you always calling this down against an unknown?

[MPB]

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How do you play the rest of the hand if you get three-bet after check-raising the flop when you hit?

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I don't c/r the flop. That just makes you pay off better hands and will mostly stop AK your villain from betting down AK unimproved.
I'd just call down,although you can of course raise the turn against some more overly aggressive villains who are unabled to fold their trashed preflop monsters.

[Watkins]

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I don't c/r the flop. That just makes you pay off better hands and will mostly stop AK your villain from betting down AK unimproved.

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Lol, this is of course the correct play. I was too busy trying to answer the question rather than provide the right answer...

[EGO]

Edit: I thought Hero was in the SB, for some reason.

Calling suited connected broadways is a no-brainer getting 3-1.

[fretelöo]

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How do you play the rest of the hand if you get three-bet after check-raising the flop when you hit?

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I don't c/r the flop. That just makes you pay off better hands and will mostly stop AK your villain from betting down AK unimproved.
I'd just call down,although you can of course raise the turn against some more overly aggressive villains who are unabled to fold their trashed preflop monsters.

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Having TP not-so-[censored] kicker, just calling down against an EP raiser is too weak, imho. You have to stick in a raise somewhere.

[Watkins]

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Having TP not-so-[censored] kicker, just calling down against an EP raiser is too weak, imho

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Frito, care to elaborate? Are you trying to protect against specifically AK or do you consider this a value bet against weak PP's that you think will call down? Also, you've highlighted our weak kicker here, your issue must be that the kicker isn't an overcard, not that it is weak?

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You have to stick in a raise somewhere.

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I assume you're not raising the river as if you get 3-barrelled there you're probably behind? So you're talking about a c/r on the flop or on a safe turn card? Both of these options seem to let villain get away when behind but punish you when ahead.

[BigBadBabar]

you guys are both right in part; it's read dependent. don't blow him off missed overs or his 99 or whatever if he's gonna 2 or 3barrel. and don't go to town either if he plays back at you but you do want to get value. it's a feel play and stats/reads help too obv.

[fretelöo]

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Having TP not-so-[censored] kicker, just calling down against an EP raiser is too weak, imho

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Frito, care to elaborate? Are you trying to protect against specifically AK or do you consider this a value bet against weak PP's that you think will call down? Also, you've highlighted our weak kicker here, your issue must be that the kicker isn't an overcard, not that it is weak?

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You have to stick in a raise somewhere.

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I assume you're not raising the river as if you get 3-barrelled there you're probably behind? So you're talking about a c/r on the flop or on a safe turn card? Both of these options seem to let villain get away when behind but punish you when ahead.

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Yeah, like BBB says, it's to a large part feel/read dependent. Also, not having an actual hand to talk about doesn't exactly help.

So let's make something up: You have red QT and a reasonable UTG raises in a semi-tough 1/2 game. His range is a lot of Ax hands (AT+, basically) and 77+, KQ for sure, maybe even KJs.

With that range, you're a HUGE fav.:

102,960 games 0.094 secs 1,095,319 games/sec

Board: Qc 2d 3s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.168% 64.98% 00.19% 66906 191.00 { QhTh }
Hand 1: 34.832% 34.65% 00.19% 35672 191.00 { 77+, ATs+, KJs+, ATo+, KQo }

As a matter of fact, you have to tighten him down considerably to even get to 50:50:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

59,400 games 0.005 secs 11,880,000 games/sec

Board: Qc 2d 3s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.003% 49.68% 00.32% 29511 191.00 { QhTh }
Hand 1: 49.997% 49.68% 00.32% 29507 191.00 { 99+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }


So, just calling down is clearly leaving money at the table, imho.
The only question is, where to raise, and if that raise is likely to single us out againt his monsters.
And that's where reads come in. Some call down w UI OCs from the flop. Some even try a bet/call // raise turn line with 88 if the turn looks safe. The more aggro the guy, the more I like raising the flop as he'll keep fighting later on. Loose-passive, I prolly raise the turn because he might just fold his AK or 88 or whatever while he'll be dumbfounded by the "weird" turn raise ("how in the world would the 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] help him [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]) and he'll put you on K-high and call down. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Kicker is not really an issue - it's just that this is our hand: TPwK. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]