The Pre Flop Raise in low stakes FR O8

[Colonel Ingus]

I wanted to get a feel for when people raise preflop in low stakes (2/4, 3/6, 5/10) LO8. I have seen PFR% of winning players range from 0.3 to 20+, including players who raise with any A2, A3, and good HHHH hands. I know Ray Zee says PFRs only marginally increase your edge over weaker players while increasing variance. I myself raise situationally, and my stats are 27/8, which seems a rather low PFR%.

Situations where an open raise serves a clear purpose include AAWx, AWHH, AWWH, WWWWds, usually to limit the field and chase out superior one way hands. Hands to raise with after several limpers or in late position include A23x, sA2Wx, AA2x, and AA3x, in order to sweeten the pot and get position.

Considering the amount of cold calls to raises at these stakes, I suspect winning players with PFR% of 15-20 raising in any position with all of the above, plus maybe some other good hands like sA2xx, sA3Wx, AAxx, AWWx, and even AWxx. Is this a good strategy since most callers will have inferior hands? The problem I have with this strategy is that it's not uncommon to get 3-5 callers, who now have the odds to chase and hit their gutshot, 23, or something donkish like that.

On the other hand, considering the amount of cold calling, it seems almost futile to raise in order to limit the field, especially with decent but not great two-way holdings. Which seems to make the optimal play at these stakes to muck any marginal hands in EP/MP and to raise to primarily sweeten the pot in EP/MP, and also to get position in MP/LP.

Any input would be appreciated.

[Heron]

[ QUOTE ]
...I know Ray Zee says PFRs only marginally increase your edge over weaker players while increasing variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's exactly what he says. He gives that advice in the basic strategy section of his book but that is not designed to extract maximum profit out of weak players. His basic strategy to me seems rather meant as a foundation for O/8 play. Some of the concepts presented there seem more valid for middle and higher stakes.

As for preflop raising there is a short clarifying statement from him in the archives: Older Archives / Other Poker Games / Dec 1999 / Omaha 8 Advice - RZ vrs Badger

[bbartlog]

Short answer is to just raise based on value/equity of your hand. But even at low stakes you can sometimes thin the field or improve your postflop fold equity by raising. I can't say the online players are entirely mindless even at 2/4.
Bloating the pot sometimes makes people go stupid and call when they shouldn't, too.
Personally I don't raise that much - A2Ws/AAW from EP or blinds, A2s/A3Ws/AAxx if opening from MP/LP.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
low stakes FR O8

[/ QUOTE ]Colonel - What does "FR" mean as you are using it here?

Some hands (pushing hands) lend themselves more to pre-flop raising than other hands (pulling hands). However, that is not to imply you should always raise with pushing hands and never raise with pulling hands.

Hands that play well one-on-one or short-handed but not well when many opponents see the flop are pushing hands. A general difficulty with pushing hands is the push has to succeed for the tactic to be effective. Raising to knock out opponents who don’t fold to your raise is figuratively shooting yourself in the foot. You’ve simply cost yourself an extra bet.

Hands, such as nut flush draws, that have the same chance of winning against many opponents as against few opponents are pulling hands. Regardless of the number of opponents, you expect to usually lose when you play these hands. When you do make your draw with these hands, you want as many opponents paying off as possible.

Hands with which you expect to often be drawing for the nuts after the flop are, in general, pulling hands. You want to see the flop as cheaply as possible and then if you have a nice flop connection, you want as many opponents as possible paying you off on the river.

Pure pulling or pushing playable starting hands are uncommon. Most playable Omaha-8 starting hands are drawing hands. Thus most playable Omaha-8 starting hands can be classified as pulling hands. And even when a starting hand fits into the pushing category, you can play it as a pulling hand.

For example, a pair of aces is a pushing component within a hand, very powerful for one-on-one play but usually missing a good enough board fit for a win against multiple opponents. But you can play a hand with a pair of aces as a drawing hand. Played as a drawing hand, you need to end up on the river with the board having an ace and a pair. Happens about one time in a dozen, something like that, that you’ll end up with a full house or quads. When you do, you like customers.

As a counter example, an ace suited to another card in a hand is a pulling component within a hand. You only expect to win with the nut flush one time out of twenty or twenty five, something like that - but when you do make the nut flush, you can bet it solidly and probably will get some calls. And the more calls, the merrier. However, you’re actually more likely to win with the hand in some other way. Two pairs doesn’t win much in full table simulations, but when I keep track of what wins high for me most often in regular game play when I have a hand with a suited ace, it is two pairs, made using the ace and one of the other three cards in the hand.

Assuming there are some reasonably intelligent opponents in your games, the way you play one hand will probably affect the way at least some of your opponents will react to the way you play another hand. Thus you want to mix up your play enough to be difficult to read. You don’t always want to limp and, very unlike Texas hold ‘em, you don’t always want to raise either.

Whether to raise or not, in my humble opinion, depends more on the effect raising will have on your opponents, both on the current deal and on future deals, than whether you have a pushing hand or a pulling hand.

Indeed, you could raise or not with any hand you chose to play, depending on the effect you wanted to achieve.

One good reason to raise at least some of the time is you do tend to make play more difficult for your opponents. And when you make play more difficult for your opponents, they are more likely to make mistakes.

However, you don’t want to telegraph you hands with your raises. You don’t want to always raise from early position with a pair of aces or kinds and never raise from early position without aces or kings. And you don’t want to always raise from late position or the blinds whenever, but only whenever you have an ace-deuce combo or suited-ace-trey combo. And you don’t want to always but only raise with these favored two-card combos from any position either.

Buzz

[chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
Colonel - What does "FR" mean as you are using it here?

[/ QUOTE ]
My guess is Full Ring

[Colonel Ingus]

FR = Full Ring (9-10 players)

Buzz,

Which hands would you consider pushing hands in low limit O8? I've listed a few in my first post, but again, considering the amount of cold calls in some of these games (with VP$IPs in the 70s, 80s) raising a pushing hand seems like an expensive habit.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
raising a pushing hand seems like an expensive habit.

[/ QUOTE ]Colonel - You’re right - and that’s the thing. Trying a tactic you know won’t work in your game is fruitless.

[ QUOTE ]
Which hands would you consider pushing hands in low limit O8?

[/ QUOTE ]I might not push with any hands in a loose game. It would be on a case to case basis, considering how I thought various oppoennts would be affected.

However, to answer your question, a pushing hand would be one that plays better heads-up than against many opponents. AK97o would be such a hand. If the game situation were such that a late position raise would probably serve to either steal the blinds or get me one-on-one with Big Blind with a random hand, then I’d consider pushing with AK97o. Otherwise I would not want to play the hand.

Against four random hands, AK97o is the biggest loser, winning 13.7%, as simulated, where it’s fair share would be 20.0%.
Against three random hands, AK97o is also the biggest loser, winning 16.6%, as simulated, where it’s fair share would be 25.0%.
Against two random hands, AK97o is still the biggest loser, winning 32,1% where it’s fair share would be 33.3%.
But heads-up against a random hand, the hand becomes the favorite by 53% to 47%.

Thus AK97o is a pushing hand. But in the typical loose kind of game to which you’re referring, you’d probably do best to fold the hand from any place but the big blind. It’s a pushing hand, but it would be stupid to push with it when the push would not serve to get it one-on-one with the big blind.

AAK8o is another pushing type hand. Against four opponents with random hands, AAK8o wins 19.8%, less than it’s fair share (which would be 20%). But heads up against a random hand, AAK8o is a 59% to 41% favorite.

There are many hands that are the favorite one-on-one, but that don’t fare particularly well against multiple opponents.

If we made one of the aces suited to the king, the AAK8s hand would become a heads up 61.1% to 38.9% favorite against a random hand (as simulated). The suited ace pulling component would also make it the pre-flop favorite against four random hands, 22.8% to 17.3% to 17.3% to 17.3% to 17.3%. Thus you could either play AAK8s as a pulling hand or as a pushing hand. However, maybe you don’t want to play it as a pushing hand if pushing won’t get you heads-up. Or maybe you do. Raising does get more money into the pot on the first betting round, and you are probably a pre-flop favorite against random hands.

But there are two problems. (1) In general, you won’t be playing against random hands. (2) Your opponents will tend to put you on aces or kings or ace-deuce or ace-trey when you raise before the flop. And then, depending on how things go and what cards they hold, they may be tighter on succeeding betting rounds, for example if the flop is 556 and the turn is an ace. They’re going to back off from betting the turn, or maybe even continuing once there is an ace plus a pair on the board.

Depends on your opponents, I suppose. If they’re purely stupid, maybe they won’t connect your pre-flop push (raise) with a very possible pair of aces.

Not that it matters, but in a FR limit O8 game I personally would tend to limp with AAK8s, hoping to collect more on later betting rounds when I connected with the flop, and hoping to get out as cheaply as possible when I didn’t. And I’d tend to simply fold AK97 and AAK8o before the flop, unless in the big blind. You could classify all three of these hands as pushing hands, especially AK97o. But I wouldn’t push with any of them in a typical FR limit O8 game.

However, at the final table in a tournament, when everybody was trying to move up one place, if I were seated in the cut-off seat after everyone in front of the big blind folded, depending on my stack size and the players involved, I very well might raise, expecting to either steal the blinds or get one-on-one with position on the Big Blind.

But if I didn’t fully expect the ploy to work, then I wouldn’t try it. Just because you’re dealt a pushing hand doesn’t mean you have to push.

Buzz

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
Against four random hands, AK97o is the biggest loser, winning 13.7%, as simulated, where it’s fair share would be 20.0%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buzz, what program are you using to generate these percentages? Is there a Pokerstove for Omaha?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
hat program are you using to generate these percentages?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Matt - I used Wilson software for that simulation. (Wilson Turbo Omaha High Low for Windows)[ QUOTE ]
Is there a Pokerstove for Omaha?

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know.

Buzz

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, considering the amount of cold calling, it seems almost futile to raise in order to limit the field, especially with decent but not great two-way holdings. Which seems to make the optimal play at these stakes to muck any marginal hands in EP/MP and to raise to primarily sweeten the pot in EP/MP, and also to get position in MP/LP.

[/ QUOTE ] I strongly agree with this line of thinking. I feel that the players who always raise (even when first in) with hands like A2 baby baby suited are leaving profit on the table - they play all good pulling hands like pushing hands. Conversely, those who don't raise first in when it's folded to them in mid/late position with reasonable two way hands like suited A4QJ or double suited 2358 are also leaving profit on the table. It boils down to position being quite important, and not getting terribly involved without a superior hand without it, and punishing those who want to limp out of position with the typical 23JK junk.