KK in huge pot vs. Lpp's

saviva · #1 03-02-2007, 08:03 PM

Button tends to be loose and passive (63/12). Button is also unpredictable, trying to make a lot of plays on the turn (bluff or semi bluff raise). CO is loose as well (60/20). Due to these players general passivity, I thought it was likely I was behind, maybe dealing with 2 pair. Would you guys play this differently, more or less aggressively?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, Button caps, 2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (23.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 29.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Ks (one pair, kings).
CO has Kh Jd (one pair, jacks).
Button has Ad 7d (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins 29.75 BB.

jstill · #2 03-02-2007, 09:05 PM

much less aggro

turn 3bet sucks, i probably wouldnt even cap the flop. definitely fold the river for 2 bets as played

edit: btw these are not laps at all

djmeehan · #3 03-02-2007, 09:50 PM

I would slow down by turn. After capping flop, leading turn and getting raised, it's hard to believe your still good here. Given the size of pot and unpredictability of villians, I would revert to calling down at this point. I think folding is better than calling 2 bets cold on river here.

Adam Stewart · #4 03-03-2007, 12:52 AM

FLOP:

No problems here. Alternatively, you may want to try check-raising this flop as it'll work 100% of the time based on the preflop action.

TURN:

Leading the turn is definitely okay, but when you get raised by the button yet again, it's generally a bad sign (i.e. despite all of your preflop and flop action he's still continuing to raise).

Accordingly, you should just go into call down mode.

RIVER:

Good initial check. When it's two back to you, you should fold. I know it's hard to lay down your KK overpair, but it's the correct play. Someone here has at least two pair, and probably better than that.

Tough beat on this hand. But you should have these guys on your buddy list [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

AS

hizo · #5 03-03-2007, 10:47 AM

I agree with your flop play, though I agree with the otehr posters that you should have slowed down on the turn.

I disagree with folding the river in this big pot with the unpredictable player raising. This is just too big a pot.

Also, it's better not to post results until after most discussion has taken place as it implements bias into posters' responses.

Brag: I won a very similar hand with my QQ after unpredictable villain capped turn with AJ on Jxxx coordinated board.

Adam Stewart · #6 03-03-2007, 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with your flop play, though I agree with the otehr posters that you should have slowed down on the turn.

I disagree with folding the river in this big pot with the unpredictable player raising. This is just too big a pot.

Also, it's better not to post results until after most discussion has taken place as it implements bias into posters' responses.

Brag: I won a very similar hand with my QQ after unpredictable villain capped turn with AJ on Jxxx coordinated board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the pot is huge and it's very close on the river. However, note that the pot would have been smaller had Hero not 3-bet the turn ... making the pot a little smaller and an easier fold.

You mentioned having the results bias people's responses. I think it may be biasing your response for the "call" on the river here (seeing that one guy had only KJ and the other was going ape-[censored] with big draw.

The fact remains, though, after all the action on the flop, turn, and then the river .... there's NO WAY a single pair is showing down as the winner. Sure, maybe 1 in 20-25 times .... but not 1 in 15.

AS

mvoss · #7 03-03-2007, 11:03 AM

I think the play here is to just call down from his turn raise. Your play is screaming overpair and he just keeps raising. He can only have AA, QQ, JJ or the unlikely KK. To be honest I think you can fold the river when CO wakes up.

hizo · #8 03-03-2007, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with your flop play, though I agree with the otehr posters that you should have slowed down on the turn.

I disagree with folding the river in this big pot with the unpredictable player raising. This is just too big a pot.

Also, it's better not to post results until after most discussion has taken place as it implements bias into posters' responses.

Brag: I won a very similar hand with my QQ after unpredictable villain capped turn with AJ on Jxxx coordinated board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the pot is huge and it's very close on the river. However, note that the pot would have been smaller had Hero not 3-bet the turn ... making the pot a little smaller and an easier fold.

You mentioned having the results bias people's responses. I think it may be biasing your response for the "call" on the river here (seeing that one guy had only KJ and the other was going ape-[censored] with big draw.

The fact remains, though, after all the action on the flop, turn, and then the river .... there's NO WAY a single pair is showing down as the winner. Sure, maybe 1 in 20-25 times .... but not 1 in 15.

AS

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, with an unpredictable villain you're good more often than that. Granted maybe not the 1/10 times we would need to call if the pot hadn't been inflated more on the turn, but once the turn is capped we defintely need to call the river. We're good here much more often than your 1/20-25.

Adam Stewart · #9 03-04-2007, 02:55 AM

There's still one very important point that I forgot to mention regarding the river play:

Hero is not closing the action.

This means it could cost Hero up to 4 more BB's to see a showdown here - and given the action thus far, it'll get re-raised behind the Hero quite often.

This clearly makes folding the river the correct play.

AS

saviva · #10 03-04-2007, 05:51 PM

Thank you very much. All your comments have been very helpful and given me a lot to think about! I love it!