BB KK into a 3 way flop.. grumble!

[bozlax]

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You are reading too much into it. Think more along the lines of "Ace good, I like." Whatever the reason, people don't fold ace top pairs for one bet, or even two most of the time.

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Hmmm...maybe they've all been reading that famous post by Ed Miller?

[Absolution]

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You are reading too much into it. Think more along the lines of "Ace good, I like." Whatever the reason, people don't fold ace top pairs for one bet, or even two most of the time.

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Hmmm...maybe they've all been reading that famous post by Ed Miller?

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Boz, is it possible for you not to use sarcasm (or derision) in a post? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Matt Ruff]

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Matt Ruff, there are so many things wrong with this post that my head's about to explode just thinking about it.

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Well, if you could wrap some baling wire around your skull and then clue me in, I'd appreciate it. (I'll gladly stipulate in advance that I'm a donkey for not noticing that Aaron's reg. date precedes "the famous Ed Miller post" by two years).

[bozlax]

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Boz, is it possible for you not to use sarcasm (or derision) in a post? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Yes...yes, it is. (But, no, not really.)

And, Matt Ruff, I actually started to make a list, but decided that I was mostly picking nits and being snarky, so I erased it. The biggest problem is that this hand and the A3o hand are in no way, shape or form of comprable strength. I'm sure you can work out why (hint: part of the answer is in Ed's second paragraph). (fwiw, I consider the Ed Miller post to be the most oft-mis-applied piece of advice ever given on this forum.) (btw, you're right about at least seeing the turn if raised on the flop, but you shouldn't be planning to call down regardless of the turn action, a la Ed's post.)

Edit: baling wire just gave out:



(The only reason I responded at all was because you invoked "baling wire".)

[Matt Ruff]

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The biggest problem is that this hand and the A3o hand are in no way, shape or form of comprable strength.

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I think you misunderstood my reason for invoking TFEMP. I wasn't suggesting that OP's KK is anywhere near as strong as A3 would be on a flop like this. But in the hand Ed Miller wrote about, a guy holding ace-rag did exactly what Aaron and Absolution insist a guy holding ace-rag will never do -- folded top pair to a single bet in a large pot. And this was apparently a common enough error, endorsed by numerous 2p2 posters, that Ed felt a need to get all caps about it. Thanks in part to TFEMP, the error may be less common today, but it's still hugely expensive; with 12.4 bets in the pot, KK makes money if he can get A3 to lay down just one time in thirteen.

So I don't think it's nutty to suggest that one of the reasons you bet KK on this flop is to try to get weak aces to fold. If I could redo my initial post I might change A3o to A3s, because I think it's easier for A3s to make the weak-tight play here -- if he called preflop hoping to hit a flush draw, he might regard a rainbow flop as a miss, even though he's still got TFP in a huge pot.

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The only reason I responded at all was because you invoked "baling wire".)

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Yeah, I figured that'd get you.

[bozlax]

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I think you misunderstood my reason for invoking TFEMP. I wasn't suggesting that OP's KK is anywhere near as strong as A3 would be on a flop like this. But in the hand Ed Miller wrote about, a guy holding ace-rag did exactly what Aaron and Absolution insist a guy holding ace-rag will never do -- folded top pair to a single bet in a large pot. And this was apparently a common enough error, endorsed by numerous 2p2 posters, that Ed felt a need to get all caps about it.

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Actually, I couldn't see any reason to quote Ed, so I defaulted to the side that it's usually quoted for and assumed you were using it to advocate a ritual calldown; in this case that was the wrong side.

The problem with the above line of reasoning is that Ed's post was directed at "good" players who were mis-thinking their advice. TPNK in a big pot is one of those cases where fish routinely make the right play for the wrong reasons, and Ed's post should not be used as evidence that poor players will fold it.

[cold_cash]

People who cold-call and/or put in multiple bets before the flop with hands like A3 aren't the least bit concerned with what hands the raiser might be holding, and they certainly did not put those bets in only to fold when an Ace hits.

The example above is not the same as when a decent player calls a raise out of the big blind w/ A3s in a 6-way pot and an Ace hits.

[00Snitch]

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There's a famous Ed Miller post from 2004, "Why you guys aren't crushing these Microlimit games,"


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orly? link pls!

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IF YOU ONLY GET CALLED BY UTG+1, YOU'RE WA/WB AND YOU C/C THE TURN AND B/F THE RIVER. IF UTG+1 RAISES YOU, CALLDOWN.


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wow, this is hard to understand [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

you are saying that you are more likely to be good if he just calls then you are when he raises the flop?

so, in the case where he just calls, you are assuming he has the ace but is scared of being out-kicked.

in the case where he raises, you think he is more likely to do this with a hand like QQ/JJ then with AJ.