BB KK into a 3 way flop.. grumble!

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
the guy who cold-called preflop with A3o doesn't know that; give him a chance to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahahahahahaha

did I mention

hahahahahahahahaha?

[bung]

*grunch*

Hero should bet the flop.

[bozlax]

Normally I read threads before I respond, to avoid repeating other veterans' analyses. In this case the HH made me throw up in my mouth and Poker Gestalt's response made me throw up on my keyboard so I'll have to make an exception.

YOU MUST C-BET THIS FLOP; IF YOU GET CALLED IN MORE THAN ONE PLACE, YOU CAN CONSIDER....CONSIDER....C/F'ING THE TURN TO A BET AND A CALL. IF YOU ONLY GET CALLED BY UTG+1, YOU'RE WA/WB AND YOU C/C THE TURN AND B/F THE RIVER. IF UTG+1 RAISES YOU, CALLDOWN.

Seriously, this is one of the most fundamental plays in the micro playbook. If you're screwing this one up, you're setting money afire.

[i]Edit: now I've read the rest of the thread, and have 2 comments. One, anybody saying that this was a good play should reconsider their future in poker. Two, [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Absolution.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the guy who cold-called preflop with A3o doesn't know that; give him a chance to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahahahahahaha

[/ QUOTE ]

???

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the guy who cold-called preflop with A3o doesn't know that; give him a chance to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahahahahahaha

[/ QUOTE ]

???

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is folding aces here.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is folding aces here.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP check-folded kings on the theory that somebody "had" to have an ace; I don't see why a weak ace couldn't read a lead by Hero and a call by UTG as proof positive that he must be up against AK or AA. It's also possible that UTG will raise with QQ hoping to buy a cheap showdown, facing Mr. A3o with calling two cold.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is folding aces here.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP check-folded kings on the theory that somebody "had" to have an ace; I don't see why a weak ace couldn't read a lead by Hero and a call by UTG as proof positive that he must be up against AK or AA. It's also possible that UTG will raise with QQ hoping to buy a cheap showdown, facing Mr. A3o with calling two cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not paying attention. Hero is bet-folding this flop.

1) If UTG raises QQ to knock out A3o, it doesn't matter because Hero is also folding.
2) If UTG does not raise, then A3o is definitely calling to see the turn.

It basically never works out that A3o folds in a way that benefits Hero. Also, it is rare to find a player willing to coldcall with weak aces who will fold when flopping top pair.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not paying attention. Hero is bet-folding this flop.

1) If UTG raises QQ to knock out A3o, it doesn't matter because Hero is also folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG raises, Hero is getting over 15-1 and should call. He can always check-fold the turn if he misses his set.

[ QUOTE ]
2) If UTG does not raise, then A3o is definitely calling to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a famous Ed Miller post from 2004, "Why you guys aren't crushing these Microlimit games," where he urged 2+2ers to stop folding big pots for one bet. Here's the example hand he used to make his point:

"There was a post just this morning where someone limped in with A3s on the button after two limpers. The big blind raise behind and everyone called. The flop was AQ2, and the action went BB bet, one limper called, and it was your action. You have top frickin pair in a big (i.e. raised) pot, and it is one bet to you. The BB's bet shows no more strength than what he showed when he raised before the flop. He could easily have KQ or TT or 76s. The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards. You are getting 11-1 on a call, and did I mention that you have top frickin pair?

"And yet half (or more) of the advice told him to fold. TERRIBLE! Horrible, terrible, wretched poker advice. The pot is big, you have a good hand, no one has shown any real strength, and you are gonna bail? Absurd. Yes, sometimes the raiser will have AQ and you'll lose a couple of bets. But the pot is already way bigger than a "couple of bets." And when you have the raiser beaten, he's gonna be the one losing a couple of bets to you when he pays YOU off with his KK or whatever.

"WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET! Just stop doing it."

Now granted, this was written back before SSHE got published, so maybe things are different now. Maybe the word's gotten out that you should never fold top pair, weak kicker to one bet on the flop when the pot is big. But I don't believe it.

[Absolution]

You are reading too much into it. Think more along the lines of "Ace good, I like." Whatever the reason, people don't fold ace top pairs for one bet, or even two most of the time.

[bozlax]

Matt Ruff, there are so many things wrong with this post that my head's about to explode just thinking about it. So, I'm simply going to say:

ZOMG!1!!1!!11!1! Aaron, some nOOb is quoting Ed Miller at you! Are you gonna take that [censored] from him?