Two River Value Bets (Something Worth Doing Better)

[Moozh]

I really think river value bets can make a big difference in a solid player's winrate. Especially against bad players, I'm always wondering if I should really try to extract value from marginal hands more or less often. Here are two (simple?) examples.

Hand 1

Bad player, overly Laggy (50/30 over small sample). Still $100 deep by river. Yes? No? How much?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $7</font>, 3 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($16, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $11</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $25</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($66, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $25</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $60</font>, SB calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($186, 2 players)
SB checks...



Hand 2

This one involves raising the river. Player was very loose/bad. Bought in short (25bbs) and had just sat a few hands ago. Turn is very debatable and I chose to call because I didn't have enough of a history with villian. We're $80 deep at turn, $70 by the river. Call? Raise? How much (all-in here probably)?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $7</font>, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($15, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $15</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($45, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $8</font>, Hero calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($61, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $22...</font>

[Lurker.]

hand one check behind i think.
hand 2 i like raising the turn. as played shove the river.

[cbboy]

Hand 1- is the turn raise standard here? I raise here sometimes and call sometimes... As played I think i check behind river.

Hand 2- I usually raise turn (right play!?!?!?). As played, shove river.

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1- is the turn raise standard here? I raise here sometimes and call sometimes... As played I think i check behind river.

Hand 2- I usually raise turn (right play!?!?!?). As played, shove river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raised the turn in Hand 1 because I felt I did have enough history with the villain that it was unlikely he would 'fake-block' the turn with a worse hand. I also didn't seem him doing it with nothing (or at least found it unlikely), so I felt I had some value in it. But then he called and I got scared.

[tw0please]

[ QUOTE ]

I raised the turn in Hand 1 because I felt I did have enough history with the villain that it was unlikely he would 'fake-block' the turn with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You feel it is likely that villain has a strong hand and so you raise when given great odds to draw? This makes no sense to me. Can you explain how your read elicited a raise from you?

[Praxis101]

The Hand 1 turn could go either way, it's a marginal situation and the meta-game reasons for action are probably most important here rather than the actual raise.
Villain could hold Qx, 77-JJ, 46xx, any two clubs, 66. All of these would make a raise viable.

As played, I definately value bet here. Even 1/3 pot is valuable here, river isn't particularly bad. There is, of course, a little extra value is not showing down this hand also.

If he CR's river - no matter how small you've bet - you're beaten.

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I raised the turn in Hand 1 because I felt I did have enough history with the villain that it was unlikely he would 'fake-block' the turn with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You feel it is likely that villain has a strong hand and so you raise when given great odds to draw? This makes no sense to me. Can you explain how your read elicited a raise from you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, that's not what I meant to say. I meant that it was unlikely that he would 'fake-block' with a strong hand to induce a raise. (Which can be a great strat to use against the right type of player).