Rough Day at 400, Hand #2 (Thanks Again)

[Moozh]

One other hand that bugged me from tonight.

Villan looked to be solid/aggressive over a small sample. Not a soft spot. I'll check here on the flop maybe 50% of the time OOP against aggressive opponents (too much)? Am I setting myself to be pushed off hands like this, am I costing value or giving too many free cards? Any other comments on this line?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $14</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($34, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $27</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($88, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $81</font>, Hero calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($250, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button is all-in $614.5</font>, Hero folds.

[Reef]

wow.

bet flop

call river

[FreakDaddy]

Don't mind this flop line sometimes, as long as you understand how you're miving this into your game. If I check/call here though, I'd usually lead turn. I'll also do this with two pair and other hands sometimes so my hand isn't transparent of course.

On the river, you've shown zero aggression, so the massive over bet just makes zero sense by villian. Unless he has a really good read on you, and you've been playing TPTK type hands like this a lot, I'd be inclined to call the river.

[minnesotasam]

You've definitely under-represented your hand (unless villain's seen you check-call strong hands), and I guess I don't understand the logic of doing so unless you're trying to induce more bluffs (meaning that we have to actually call when our opponents bite).

Question, if you're check folding THIS river, what river cards do you play differently? Are you folding this with pretty much anything but an ace or a jack hitting the river? I mean, will any 6, 7, 8, T, diamond, Q, K make you check-fold large bets? If so then turn play is pretty horrific, and you're really easily exploitable in this spot.

PS What are effective stacks here?

[Reef]

oops, didn't see river was massive overbet .. I'm thinking still calling a little more than folding. But wouldn't fault a fold if you're deep.

What is your stack??

[Moozh]

Well, as I said, I take this line to change things up and to induce bluffs on dry looking boards by aggressive players.

I didn't realize stack sizes weren't in there, I started with 400.

Would it make a difference in your analysis if I told you I called the river?

[luckychewy]

if i had checked this flop for whatever reason i prob woulda c/r'd. usually it's not a good idea, but that's cause there's usually no good reason to check. given you c/c and checked turn i woulda shoved turn. river fold is fine i guess but i think it's pretty close and i think u can prob call there vs. some ppl. reads are pretty key in spots like this...

also, this isn't a dry board.

[Surf]

Moozh,

There's a big problem with this line vs thinking/observant players - you've basically turned your hand face-up, saying "i've got a medium-strength(usually 1 pair) made hand that i'd really like to show down, but don't want to play a big pot."

This opens you up to being exploited in a couple ways - your hand is so clearly defined that your opponent can value-bet ALL better hands pretty much fearlessly, and,
observant opponents can make your life hell by mixing 3barrel semibluffs with value-shoves on the river that leaves you doing a guessing game as to which level he's thinking on:

"i know he's weak so he can't call this bet" or "he knows i know he's weak and can't call this bet so i'm pushing for value b/c he'll get suspicious and call" etc.

...and when you have to make a guess for your stack you end up making pretty big mistakes b/c of incomplete information.

I'd fold, but I also don't like this line so much unless you are confident in calling the river bet (against certain opponents I would be happy to call the river here, even though the board got a bit ugly).

Surf

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
Moozh,

There's a big problem with this line vs thinking/observant players - you've basically turned your hand face-up, saying "i've got a medium-strength(usually 1 pair) made hand that i'd really like to show down, but don't want to play a big pot."

This opens you up to being exploited in a couple ways - your hand is so clearly defined that your opponent can value-bet ALL better hands pretty much fearlessly, and,
observant opponents can make your life hell by mixing 3barrel semibluffs with value-shoves on the river that leaves you doing a guessing game as to which level he's thinking on:

"i know he's weak so he can't call this bet" or "he knows i know he's weak and can't call this bet so i'm pushing for value b/c he'll get suspicious and call" etc.

...and when you have to make a guess for your stack you end up making pretty big mistakes b/c of incomplete information.

I'd fold, but I also don't like this line so much unless you are confident in calling the river bet (against certain opponents I would be happy to call the river here, even though the board got a bit ugly).

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, good points and definitely stuff I was thinking about later. It's such a bad spot to be in after I call a turn bet because I never have any idea what to do on the river. Thanks for the good post.

Results: I called the river and lost to 55.