Hypothetical QQ facing tight re-raiser

[Moozh]

I'm sure this has been covered before but I've been thinking about it and just wanted a quick answer.

Assume $100 stacks, I raise to 4, he makes it 12. Tight and safe player so a re-raise is scary.

I ran into this situation today and after a pause put in a solid raise to 40. Looking back, I think that was a horrible decision as it lets him play pretty much perfectly against me and puts me in a tough situation if he decides to come along (as I'm nearly pot committed already).

Thinking about it now, I like the idea of putting in a smaller reraise, say to 30, which allows me to contemplate folding if he comes over the top. I try to stay away from small raises like this most of the time, but this seemed a good place for it. Is this good thinking? Am I being too scared with queens? Would you play TT-JJ the same? KK? Short answers are fine and all I'm really looking for. Thanks.

[bort411]

I'm assuming you're out of position here and villian is not a blind.

Against a tighter opponent (PFR below 5) I'm generally inclined to call here and see a flop. Putting in a 3rd raise in this situation doesn't drive me wild for the reasons you listed. However, if 3 betting here is being done so that you can "contemplate folding", that's pretty weak.

Anyway, I pretty much call here with any pair up to and including queens, and a lot of times aces or kings.

[JackAll]

I don't like a 3-bet pf with QQ at all. Whether villian is a good player or a crap one.

I would call his rrz and evaluate on the flop.
If it's not an overpair, I would c/f or b/f the flop. Or c/c if the player is very passive and likely to just check behind on the turn after their c-bet.
It it is an overpair, I think I would c/c and b/f the turn.

[jmxthievez]

Jackall- could you please explain your reasoning? Most of the time QQ is an overpair and that is where our hard decision lies. Pretty easy to fold if flop comes AKx. But if its all uncoordinated small cards, how does c/c b/f the turn help you? This strategy is so easily exploited.

Ok, so you call his cbet. Now you donk the turn, if called, you still don't know if he has AA or JJ. The only hand you may fold out is missed AK and against aggressive players that is still unlikely as they would put in a raise to your suspicious bet and fold to a 3bet. And you certainly do not 3bet.

[JackAll]

[ QUOTE ]
Jackall- could you please explain your reasoning? Most of the time QQ is an overpair and that is where our hard decision lies. Pretty easy to fold if flop comes AKx. But if its all uncoordinated small cards, how does c/c b/f the turn help you? This strategy is so easily exploited.

Ok, so you call his cbet. Now you donk the turn, if called, you still don't know if he has AA or JJ. The only hand you may fold out is missed AK and against aggressive players that is still unlikely as they would put in a raise to your suspicious bet and fold to a 3bet. And you certainly do not 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that with AA/KK, they would often raise the turn to get more money in. I would be happy to bet the river for value against 99-JJ.

[jetsetboy]

@Jackall : I don't really understand your line here, once you've called, you'll find a pot of $25 at the beginning of the flop with $75 left, if he fire $20 on the flop you'll find a pot of $65 with only $55 left thus PSB the turn means going AI. Even if you chose to make a small/weak 1/3PSB ($20) you'll have to face a tough decision if your opponent reraises you AI on the turn, as it will means to fold to a reraise of $35 for a pot of $130... Furthermore you're giving a free card to AK and can be loss on the turn if an A or a K hit. What if your opponent goes AI on a flop like 952r ?

@jmxthievez : A flop like JT2 is as dangerous as AKx and J82 is as dangerous as A82. In both case you're only ahead of a few hands.

[jetsetboy]

I think the answer to the question is a math/read problem. First we have to define a range for your opponent.

If you are 100% sure that he will reraise you only with AA/KK it's an easy fold. If you think he can reraise you with AK/TT+ it is at least a call.

Pro & cons :
_ Fold : We have lost only $4 while we hold the third best hand preflop. Seems to be as weak as folding a bottom set on a rainbow flop to me. I've never been able to do this because i've never been enough confident in my reads...
_ Call : We can hit a Q on the flop (top set) and stack AA and maybe KK. If we are OOP most of the flop will be awfull for us (Any flop with an overcard or a J). Even a T-high flop will not allow us to extract much money from a thinking opponent with JJ or AK. Without a set a monotone board, will be awfull (even with the queen). So if we call and we don't hit our set, a perfect flop for us is something like 852r but we will not be payed by AK and we will be stacked by AA/KK or might fold to an aggressive JJ...
_ 3bet : We will have some FE against AK/AQ and the smaller pairs/bluff. Sadly that means we will have FE only against worst hand and AK (except with a very NIT image against a weak player that can fold KK there because '3bets OOP from a NIT means AA/KK').

So I think there is no real answer to the question here if we don't put him on a range. We cannot use his PFR stats to define the reraising range. I know some 10/3 FR players that raise with AKo/AQs/TT+ and reraise with AKo/TT+ in position and AKo/JJ+ from the blinds.

So when I'm in this situation I try to answer to these questions :
_ What would be the 'normal' reraising range of vilain ?
_ Can he escapes from JJ/TT if he doesn't hit a set on a 9-high flop ?
_ With which hand will he call a 3bet ($32-$36) ?
_ What are our relative positions ? If I have position on him postflop I can call much more easily.
_ What is my image ?
_ What are our absolut positions ? Does he knows my raising range from this position ?
_ Is he able to adapt his reraising range to a particular opponent ?
_ Am I closing the action ?

I play FR NL100 and against a unknow tight player (let say 12/3 after less than 1000 hands) I assume that the answer to those questions are :
_ What would be the 'normal' reraising range of vilain : QQ+; AK and sometime JJ/TT (20% of the time)
_ Can he escapes from JJ/TT if he doesn't hit a set on a 9-high flop : It depends on my image and my read but usually no.
_ With which hand will he call a 3bet ($32-$36) : AA/KK sometimes AKo/QQ
_ What are our relative positions : If I have position on him postflop I usually call.
_ What is my image ?
_ What are our absolut positions : If I am LP I usually 3bet. If I am EP I usually call and play for set value or cheap showdown, in particular when vilain is EP/MP.
_ Is he able to adapt his reraising range to a particular opponent : No but he can adapt to position (absolute and relative).

Metagame : The last important question to ask is : how will we play KK and JJ in the same situation ? For obvious reasons QQ is a "boderline hand" as it is the best hand with which we will not go AI preflop. Furthermore there are much more dangerous flops for us than with AA/KK. But this hand is still a very strong holding preflop and I think it's a leak to only 3bets OOP with AA/KK (a not very big leak in SSNL as we don't face so many regulars so often that they can have such accurate reads on us AND even if they have most of them will not be able to use it). Anyway if we want to move up one day we must take care of this kind of leak and this make me think that we must 3bet this hand at least 50% of the time.