PL08 6 handed, How do you play this?

[Mendacious]

Can't decide if I played this too passively or not.
I'm pretty comfortable with the flop check, but does anyone think the check on the turn (with the intention of raising) is clearly wrong?

Also, what is the line if I check the turn and UTG+1 pots and BTN pot-raises?




$3/$6 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG (<font color="#0000cc">$507.10</font>)
UTG+1 (<font color="#0000cc">$587.75</font>)
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$786.55</font>)
BTN (<font color="#0000cc">$697.85</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$265.00</font>)
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$572.65</font>)

Pre-flop: ($9, 6 players) Hero is BB 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls $6, UTG+1 calls $6, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, BTN calls $6, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, Hero checks

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($27, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">BTN bets $25.65</font>, Hero calls $25.65, <font color="#777777">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls $25.65

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($103.95, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, BTN checks

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($103.95, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $100.95</font>, UTG+1 calls $100.95, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>

Final Pot: $305.85
Hero shows: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG+1 shows: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero wins $302 ( won +$169.4 )
BTN lost -$31.65
UTG lost -$6.00
UTG+1 lost -$132.60

[I dunno]

I don't think a turn check is clearly wrong, but I think you should be leading it a lot more often than trying to c/r.

I also feel more comfortable that I'm making the correct decision by bet-folding in the situation you describe than I do check-folding.

As played, if it goes check, pot, repot, it would be a tough fold. I dont like stacking off in an unraised pot, but in this sitaution I think no preflop raise makes it less likely the nut flush is out there. I'd probably call. A bet by UTG could be a lot of things.

[franknagaijr]

Since there was no preflop raise, that greatly lessens the chance of a turn bet by any hand that you are ahead of here. Did you have a reason to expect a turn bet here?

Is a suck-bet on this turn too obvious?

[Mendacious]

My analysis was that I was oop, that if I pot bet the turn, the majority of the time I get two folds.

When I get called, it is almost certain that it is by a player with 23, and I have no way of knowing if my flush is good, and if two players call/raise I am pot-committed and probably screwed.

However, if I check, I get to see how many players are in and for what, and decide whether to call, raise or fold with information. Also, I thought that a certain percentage of the time by checking the turn, I will get called on the river by a hand that I am either 3/4 ing or scooping.

I can see myself playing this hand much more aggressively, I just wondered if there was any merit to the way I played it, or if it was a clearly wrong leak.

[franknagaijr]

I think UTG+1 was making a crying call, so a turn PSB might have scared him off. However, that's too results-oriented.

Broadly, I think the chances of one hand crushing you here are thin and especially thin that the nutty Ah23x is out there, which significantly reduces the chance of a big CR here. On the flip side, you should have a good chance of getting 3/4 HU.

That's why I like the turn suck bet here.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
I think UTG+1 was making a crying call, so a turn PSB might have scared him off. However, that's too results-oriented.

Broadly, I think the chances of one hand crushing you here are thin and especially thin that the nutty Ah23x is out there, which significantly reduces the chance of a big CR here. On the flip side, you should have a good chance of getting 3/4 HU.

That's why I like the turn suck bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I lead there the majority of the time, but I was wondering if not-leading (and I don't just mean for meta-game reasons) had any merit.

For some reason, I have much worse success at 6-handed than full ring, and partially I think it is situations like this where when I push, bad hands fold and I get crushed by better hands.

[franknagaijr]

Not leading is not so bad, esp if it get worse hand to river call something they might turn-fold. Did you have much info on the villain's tendencies?

[Mendacious]

UTG+1 was loose, I think BTN is semi-tagish. I think the idea was to get one to bet and then isolate. But they didn't coorperate. I think if we wind up on the turn with 3 all-in players then I am getting 1/4 with the possibility of getting counterfitted. I'm not sure I want to play a non-nut flush for my high in a 3-way pot without more information-- if I can get it.

[franknagaijr]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the idea was to get one to bet and then isolate. But they didn't coorperate. I think if we wind up on the turn with 3 all-in players then I am getting 1/4 with the possibility of getting counterfitted. I'm not sure I want to play a non-nut flush for my high in a 3-way pot without more information-- if I can get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, that's why I think I like the suck bet on the turn, as it provides more information than a check-call.

If you make the suck bet and get one flat call and one fold, you're much more likely to be ahead than behind HU. If you get two flat callers, you're very likely to be quartered and should plan accordingly, although there's a not insignificant chance of you getting 4/6 or 3/4 of the pot here, so I'd prolly not fold. If you get a flat call and a 'POT!', or a repot- and a flat call, then it's likely you can get away with a modicum of dignity.

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 was loose, I think BTN is semi-tagish.

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT
Doesn't seem like the perfect storm to get somebody else to bet. If UTG+1 is more likely to call with worse holdings than he is to bet his better hands, the turn bet makes sense. If BTN is taggish, should'nt he have made a pot sweetener with A23X?, and wouldn't he be afraid to come over the top with 23 and anything less than the Ace of hearts?

[brian64]

Given BTN's play doesn't it seem likely that he had a set, or maybe top two pair? If so, he must have been really happy to get a free card on the turn. UTG+1 also got a free shot at a wheel. How about betting 1/2 pot to protect your hand?

Also, sorry if this is a non sequitur, but isn't UTG+1's play pretty loose here? Even on 6-max I wouldn't limp with 34JK rainbow preflop, and I don't think I would call the pot bet on the flop either. I think it's a tough decision on the river, which is why it's better to muck 34JK preflop.