Live 4/8, JTs

bellatrix · #1 10-17-2007, 01:14 PM

This is in my home base. The play is stronger than your usual 4/8. Maybe a little looser pre-flop than online, maybe a little more passive post-flop than online, but the people are aware of position and don't just raise premium cards. Usually there is 1-2 donators to the game and the rest are regulars like me shuffling chips around. MP is donator, looks like a nerd, is on total tilt (don't know why, it's not like he's getting bad beat). CO is old man, who is very aggressive post-flop usually. He would make a ton of money, if he didn't tip like 4$ a pot.

Hero is button with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
1 limp, MP player raises, CO calls, Hero calls, blinds call, limper calls.

Flop (12SB): Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check to raiser, who bets, CO calls, Hero raises, fold to MP bettor, who calls, CO calls.

Turn (9BB): 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Check, check, check

River (9BB): K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
MP check, CO bets, Hero raises (?)

Xylocain · #2 10-17-2007, 01:24 PM

:g:
I think its a call, hoping for MP to provide the extra BB we could have gotten out of CO if ahead. You pracically flipped your hand over on the turn and every draw came in on the river and he is still donking (to 3-bet?).

Bona · #3 10-17-2007, 01:25 PM

Hero calls. Flush draw came in and CO was on a draw. We probably win here sometimes but not enough to raise. The good news is MP may overcall where he might fold to a raise.

scpi10 · #4 10-17-2007, 01:28 PM

I would just call. You said he was agro post flop but he only called the flop and checked the turn. He played the hand like he has a FD. 3rd spade comes and he leads, I can't see this being anything else but the flush.

tyler_cracker · #5 10-17-2007, 01:48 PM

i would just call the flop. the presence of the flush draw weakens your draw and raising does little to clean up your pair outs.

shuinthehouse · #6 10-17-2007, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i would just call the flop. the presence of the flush draw weakens your draw and raising does little to clean up your pair outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree this is not a value raise as we don't have >33% equity with 8 outs discounted to, say, 7. There is also the risk of MP 3-betting QQ/KK/AA/AQ. But does this make sense as a free card play? Are MP and CO going to give us a free card enough to make the raise +EV?

As played, river is a call for reasons stated above.

Joe Tall · #7 10-17-2007, 03:51 PM

Preflop is going to be a fold more often than not you've got a dominated hand vs a PFR at this limit. You need a bit better relative position and should have more than one cold caller to make this closer to a neutral EV play. When you move up in limits and the games get more aggressive, this needs to see the muck more often.

Postflop is perfect, these passive games you can take free cards but calling is fine. The river raise is great as the CO will have pair/two-pair combos more often than a flush.

Smurph64 · #8 10-17-2007, 04:38 PM

well glad I read Joe here I wouldn't have done that.

I was thinking about folding preflop with this live, against online players only I think I mix up a lot depending on who the opener was, but I thought the turn should have been bet and then the call on the river would be fine.

Raising against the flush is what I do online especially against some opponents but I hate having to call a 3 bet.

I know its right but it feels like spew.

Joe Tall · #9 10-17-2007, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Raising against the flush is what I do online especially against some opponents but I hate having to call a 3 bet.

I know its right but it feels like spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

What happens is the times you are 3-bet leaves a sour taste in your mouth as human memories are selective. What we have to do is keep making the right play as the CO will have a pair combo more often than anything here.

bellatrix · #10 10-17-2007, 05:20 PM

Yeah, most of the time I would need one more caller to CC this pre-flop. I just want to add, that MP was almost opening everytime. He had shown QTs, 42s, KK, AJo, 98s (not necessarily in that order). I know my hand is only a drawing hand, but I have the best position against the aggressors. Yes, they were aggressive, which is why I raised on the flop, to just stop the sensless aggression on the expensive streets and maximize my draw.