FTP (12): what do we need to shove here?

[AMT]

I was reviewing a student's HH and came across an interesting spot. What do you think we need to reshove here? Converter is down.

Full Tilt Poker Game #4165679186: $11 + $1 Sit & Go (Turbo) (31623917), Table 1 - 200/400 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:24:53 ET - 2007/11/13
Seat 4: Wildlylucky (1,500)
Seat 5: HereWeR (3,474)
Seat 6: skysthelimitGK (2,080)
Seat 7: giuanni (646)
Seat 8: Hero (1,540)
Seat 9: OtherSense (4,260)
HereWeR posts the small blind of 200
skysthelimitGK posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [3h Ac]
giuanni raises to 646, and is all in
Hero?

[DetroitHustle]

Hmmm...im just gonna give a crack at it since no one has gotten in the thread yet. Given who is in the bb has only 4 bb after posting i think we have more fe vs him than if a big stack was in the bb (if current bb calls and loses to us he's crippled , where if othersense or herewer were the bb they are probally calling alot looser if not ATC given the odds they will be getting to make the call.)
Maybe something like A5s+A8o+44/55+/KJ+
probally way off but bleh
does all the dead money in the pot if SB/BB folds give us reason to push wider?

[sippin_criss]

Spots like this when a guy with a tiny stack gets it in before me I tend to just shove the same range I'd have shoved if he folded.

[DetroitHustle]

[ QUOTE ]
Spots like this when a guy with a tiny stack gets it in before me I tend to just shove the same range I'd have shoved if he folded.

[/ QUOTE ]
With rougly 3.5bb how wide should we be pushing from this position? Does having the shorter of the 3 big stacks in the BB affect your decision (shove wider in that case)? I have a lot of trouble when i get to 200/400 with this size stack.
Should we be pushing something more like Any Ace/Any 2 broadways (include 10's) any pair?
bleh my laptop broke over thanksgiving weekend which leaves me with no sngwiz or poker rooms since my only computer access is now a mac , i could probally figure this out on my own by reviewing in sngegt or sngwiz where i had similar situations.
luckly i have a desktop (gateway) in the mail and should be here sometime next week

[AMT]

[ QUOTE ]
Spots like this when a guy with a tiny stack gets it in before me I tend to just shove the same range I'd have shoved if he folded.

[/ QUOTE ]


The issue with this is that, if you follow the above logic, shouldn't you be shoving wider because theres essentially 1050 dead $$?

[sippin_criss]

Well most villains probably won't just put it in with atc here, and also you do have to show your hand down vs at least him. Have you tried fiddling with it on SNGWiz and seeing what it says? Seems like more of a feel spot than a math spot.

[blackize]

SNGwiz spits out like 55+ A8s+ ATo+ KQs with UTG shoving about 30% and with the others overcalling 15% save the BB who calls 20%. You can go wider if UTG opens wider

[HajiShirazu]

I would play much much tighter than normal, there is no "dead money" because you win nothing if you don't win the showdown. Basically you are shoving into blinds of 100/200 or so since you are only looking to fold the others out so that you can play HU with about half of the equity that is in the pot now (unless you have a monster obv) and you can never win uncontested.

[AMT]

im lost on your argument.

we're playing 100/200 effective bb? i dont see this since everyone involved has >1bb, and how do you come out with half the pot equity? Would any better than random hand suit your argument?

The play is extremely short stacked, and I would assume utg is extremely wide here (well over the above-posted 30% range) and hero cannot just fold into the money. I think all of the above would make playing really tight here kinda sucky if the table is reasonable/not manics. Also, the fact that the players arent observant leads me to believe that the bb wont be calling as wide as he should be.

[Finnisher]

ICM Nash Calculator Results

That gives 12.5%, 44+ A7s+ ATo+ KJs+ KQo QJs if UTG is pushing 30%. The overcall ranges may be a bit tight but I think the 15% and 20% blackize said are too loose cos poker is a teamsport after all and people tend to respect a shove here. If we scoop the 3-way pot we're CL or close to it. And if we fold we'll take a sngpt -ev spot anyway.

I guess the range is pretty close to the same as it'd be if UTG had folded. Fold most of the SCs and weak aces?