Math Talent, Asperger's Syndrome,"Social Skills"

[David Sklansky]

What I am about to say is something that I believe most psychologists who study the subject agree with. But it is less well known among the general public. It has to do with why some science minded people and those who have a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, sometimes seem socially inept. It isn't because they are incapable of changing. It is because many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous. Obvious to them that is. Saying "God bless you", offering High Fives, asking "what's up" or "how are you" (when you obviously don't really care). Going crazy when ten strangers at your college win a basketball game.

Now I'm not talking about those poor souls who rarely shower, wear two different shoes, forget to zip up their fly or stuff like that. They miss those skills that are logical and obvious. But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind. Highly intelligent math types can't do that. They recognize how silly those little rituals are whether they want to or not. Others find it easier to suspend disbelief.

Now I understand that SOME rituals are helpful to grease conversations and avoid uncomfortable situations. Math geniuses realize this too. But that doesn't stop them from feeling a bit silly when they use them. Much sillier than the average Joe. On the other hand it is important to understand that the majority of math geniuses can learn these silly rituals if they find it imperative to do so. And get better at them than most who don't know math. Just
like almost everything else.

[chezlaw]

I was talking to a maths professor a few days ago who had been very irritated by a student who sent him an email and ended it 'god bless'.

not sure what's wrong with unmatching shoes - do you just mean functional differences or do you feel strongly about socks as well?

god bless

chez

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I have some questions that I'd hope you'd answer that are related to this. I know it's not completely on topic, but I'd appreciate your input on this even though they are semi axiom questions.

Which do you find harder to cope with socially?

Having to lie, or the truth being unacceptable VS Telling the truth but being in an akward social situation.

Pretending you care when you don't VS Being rude or an ass.

Being wrong but being well liked VS Being disliked but being correct.


These three spots plague me constantly in social situations and I have trouble justifying doing the more socially accepted option a lot of the time. I know you must be put in these spots all the time and I wonder how you deal with them.


example: Someone explaining something that is obviously incorrect and obvious immediately, yet you need to fake that his opinion could be valid, and need to stand there listening to what you know is garbage without rolling your eyes.

[Dromar]

Very insightful. I'm mathematically adept, and I agree completely.

[Stuey]

What happens when you put a group of people that all have math talent, Asperger's Syndrome together? Is it the math skill that makes them socially inept or just that they are different from others they normally interact with?

[VanVeen]

i guess one of the things self-described math geniuses can't do well is construct valid arguments or accurately report those of the scientific community.

just as there is no 'intrinsic' reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs, so too is there no 'intrinsic' reason why social conventions are ridiculous or silly and thus worthy of contempt. viewed objectively they are value-neutral. if someone chooses to do something it is because: a) they value it for its own sake, or; b) they realise it will aid in the pursuance of a long-term goal that does have inherent value (social status, wealth, maintenace or improvement of health etc.). math geniuses who choose not to observe social conventions either don't care about them, don't have long-term goals that require them, or as is almost always the case with those afflicted with the various forms of autism, they have perceptual biases that do not allow them to even become aware of them in the first place.

it's really that simple. you cannot argue that bathing is more 'logical' than saying 'god bless you' when someone sneezes. actions are initiated to solve a self-generated problem. if someone's programming is such that they assign zero value to personal hygiene or the goals it will allow them to successfully pursue, either because they don't notice or because their prefrontal cortex doesn't allow them to see those higher-order relationships, then they have no reason to bathe. actions are predicated on internal value schema. no value, no action.

[VanVeen]

they'll ignore each other. part of their brain doesn't work properly and they do not naturally observe facial expressions or body language, thus missing out on the natural cues humans use to create and build rapport w/members of their group.

it isn't a long-term planning problem. because of some malfunction, highly maladaptive until just a few centuries ago, the evaluative circuitry underlying attentional direction and focus does not 'force' them to clue in to what most of us do naturally. it's likely a spectrum disorder - less functional mirror neurons or less connections b/n them and other parts of the brain (or some conceptual analogue of this description) is the supposed cause.

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grade 5!?

Man even when I was in grade 9 I didn't care what clothing I wore and I don't ever remember anyone giving me a hard time about it. Were you in a rich kid school or something? In grade 5 every pair of pants I wore had holes in the knees or they had patches because of holes. Sometimes patches with holes in them!

I really find this hard to beleive. You felt shame about your style in grade 5? There is no way the other kids that age gave you a hard time it must have been older kids saying that to you just in jest.

[Bryan Micon]

[ QUOTE ]
What I am about to say is something that I believe most psychologists who study the subject agree with. But it is less well known among the general public. It has to do with why some science minded people and those who have a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, sometimes seem socially inept. It isn't because they are incapable of changing. It is because many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous. Obvious to them that is. Saying "God bless you", offering High Fives, asking "what's up" or "how are you" (when you obviously don't really care). Going crazy when ten strangers at your college win a basketball game.

Now I'm not talking about those poor souls who rarely shower, wear two different shoes, forget to zip up their fly or stuff like that. They miss those skills that are logical and obvious. But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind. Highly intelligent math types can't do that. They recognize how silly those little rituals are whether they want to or not. Others find it easier to suspend disbelief.

Now I understand that SOME rituals are helpful to grease conversations and avoid uncomfortable situations. Math geniuses realize this too. But that doesn't stop them from feeling a bit silly when they use them. Much sillier than the average Joe. On the other hand it is important to understand that the majority of math geniuses can learn these silly rituals if they find it imperative to do so. And get better at them than most who don't know math. Just
like almost everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL @ u Skalansky.

I find there are many medical labels for personality traits (or shortcomings, depending how you look at it)that have a big 'ole grey area that is never really discussed -

1) at what degree does a person just have Asperger's, or is just kind of a douche? is there a gene that determines it? or a series of genetic code that differs slighly in each one of us, with each minor change maybe making the "symptoms" greater or worse?

2) I feel you posed the question in this very entertaining forum (I feel I am qualified to say that ) because of you own personal insecurities towards women. Some dudes just don't have any game, and there certainly is a genetic explaination for it, but I feel that basically everyone is made differently. You are of course a mathmatics wiz, great poker player, and amazing technical writer - but for whatever reason that is not what the chicks dig.

They want the bad guy - it is something in their DNA. Many women call the nice guy when they need help, but call the bad guy when they want to be "stuffed like a thanksgiving turkey." I know you are NOT the dude they call to get that satisfaction from. You're just not the type for *most* chicks - but obv. there are freaks that love to just trip out a dude like you, real straight laced and stuff. Gotta holla via Myspace / Craigslist. I just think that's why u asked the Q in the first place.

Just my $0.02 on 4.

[VanVeen]

err, surely u noticed all the cool kids were dressed more stylishly than their social 'inferiors'? your attire demonstrates your degree of wealth and, more importantly, your relative degree of mastery over the culture you share w/your coevals. it is very important even in gr 5 and esp in gr 9.

unlikely you'll be a direct target unless you're someone who doesn't realise where they 'belong' on the totem. if you've misassessed your social value you will be ridiculed, often mercilessly.