Razz 2/4 - did I play this pretty straight up? - Page 3

2461Badugi · #21 08-20-2007, 05:40 PM

Giving him a free card if he's paired is a pretty big mistake, because there are lots of cards that can make us fold fifth when our four-card ten is actually way ahead. It's not as big a mistake as him giving us a free card when he isn't paired, though.

I don't think the situation is quite as black-and-white as blumpkin and adanthar are painting it. Clearly against a typical player you should bet. Clearly against a player who only has a check/call button you should check. We ought to be able to figure out where the line between the two is, if anyone thinks it's worthwhile. (I don't, really.)

chucky · #22 08-20-2007, 06:03 PM

Well I ran the numbers with random two card 6 or better in hole for villian and in that scenario villian is 55 percent fav on 4th. If we focused on the majority of time villian does not pair 4th hero is 30-40% equity. I understand the temptation to bet, but when playing against players who call with marginal hands in limit games why bet into them when we know we are behind and they won't fold.

electrical · #23 08-20-2007, 06:46 PM

Whether villain is marginally ahead or not on 4th, villain can't know that, and hero's hand just gets better and better.

Complete Third, Bet Fourth, Bet Fifth, Bet/3-bet Sixth (we should be so lucky), Bet the river.

Praxising · #24 08-20-2007, 07:29 PM

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Either of you care to elaborate? As I see it, what opponent calls showing a Q, and folds when he draws a card under 4, and his opponent bricks?

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In this hand it looks to me like the Q has what he considers to be a legitimate hand, a Q with two wheel cards. You have to bet 4th here or you telegraph that you paired and tell him your hole card. On 4th, Ten hi with three live cards is the best hand, you have to bet. And I'm not much for the whole "let him catch up" strategy unless I have a made 6. Catching up is the first step in "passing by."

RustyBrooks · #25 08-20-2007, 07:43 PM

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Either of you care to elaborate? As I see it, what opponent calls showing a Q, and folds when he draws a card under 4, and his opponent bricks?

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In this hand it looks to me like the Q has what he considers to be a legitimate hand, a Q with two wheel cards. You have to bet 4th here or you telegraph that you paired and tell him your hole card. On 4th, Ten hi with three live cards is the best hand, you have to bet. And I'm not much for the whole "let him catch up" strategy unless I have a made 6. Catching up is the first step in "passing by."

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You might be pushing people out of pots when you're way ahead and having them call you in ever-increasingly-large pots when they're ahead or close enough behind to call. Checking and check-raising are an integral part of any game.

kerze · #26 08-20-2007, 09:09 PM

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Bet the river. Otherwise fine.

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I'm curious why you and electrical suggest betting the river. I feel I must be really missing something here.

Aren't we betting the river to either (a) getting him to fold a better hand or (b) getting him to call with a worst hand.

Villain may be a huge donkey, but I can't believe he isn't giving us credit for a made T on our A25T board when he calls 6th. He therefore must have his made J with 4 cards most likely under 7 (based on the 3rd/4th street action). A simulation will show that he has caught better than us about 50% of the time on 7th .

Now we need to ask, if he makes a 9 or better will he fold - I doubt it - he probably wouldn't like calling a 9 but will do it. If he bricks will he call - I doubt it because I think he has to believe he have made our T. I think there is one hand that he will call that we can beat - if he catches the case T, he would probably call reluctantly.

Again, I am probably missing something here. Maybe he does call down his J if he misses. Maybe he only has a made Q on the 6th with a plan to make a move on 7th. Maybe he is even a bigger donk than I think he is.

2461Badugi · #27 08-20-2007, 09:14 PM

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I'm curious why you and electrical suggest betting the river. I feel I must be really missing something here.

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Given that he called fifth, he's calling the river. The only possible reason for him to call fifth is that he thinks we're totally FOS, and he won't have changed that opinion now.

Plus check-folding sucks.

chucky · #28 08-20-2007, 10:16 PM

opponent wont bet with 4 to a queen.

jbrennen · #29 08-20-2007, 10:57 PM

I didn't bet the river because in this situation with this opponent, I think that check-calling is best.

Just to give you an idea of what Villain is capable of, later in this session, he bet his made Q-9 on the river after an opponent showing T-4-J-3 checked. The opponent called with his made Ten low for the win. Basically, I'm saying that Villain is capable of the desperation river bluff, so I'm calling him down regardless.

I don't want to pay him off double when he makes a nice hand, and by checking, I may still get paid off when he's behind.

Praxising · #30 08-21-2007, 02:48 AM

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You might be pushing people out of pots when you're way ahead and having them call you in ever-increasingly-large pots when they're ahead or close enough behind to call. Checking and check-raising are an integral part of any game.

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Yeah, I've heard of that. But in this hand, on 4th street, eliminating the Q and the extra Ten, Hero has T35 and Seat 8 has 4xx. Very likely from the way he came in on third street, two good live cards. Hero is most likely behind right here.

In this hand, checking looks weak. The chance the Q is going to bet if checked to is pretty slim, based on how the two sets of upcards compare. So, betting here disguises Hero's pair.