Full Tilt $24 NL Turbo: QQ, the Gap Concept, and Me

luvrhino · #1 07-12-2007, 01:34 AM

At the beginning of this month i decided to take a break from limit ring games to play Turbo SnGs. Back in 2004, Limit SnGs on Empire Poker were my main game, but i have very little NL SnG experience...none at Turbos. My point being, i understand the increased importance of Gap Concept and other tournament issues as they apply to SnGs. However, without the NL experience, i'm mostly using intuition with for my proper push and call ranges.

Tonight, i had this hand with six left and had no idea what to do. I don't have any reads on either opponent other than CO insta-calling all-in. The table as a whole appeared to be tighter than average during the first three levels, in case that means anything.

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t1700)
luvrhino (t2545)
SB (t1390)
BB (t3910)
UTG (t1610)
HJ (t2345)

Preflop: luvrhino is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, HJ raises to t2345 (All-In), CO calls t1700 (All-In), 3 folds.

Flop: (t4495) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)
.

Turn: (t4495) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t4495) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t4495

Results in white below: 
HJ has Jc Kh (two pair, nines and fours).
CO has Ad As (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: CO wins t3850. MP wins t645. 

Obviously, if CO folds i'm pushing. If i had AA or KK, easy push. JJ or AK, i fold. If CO had only 1300 chips, i think i'd push with QQ, since i love my odds against HJ and should be a favorite over CO. As i wasn't sure what to do, i was busy Heads-Up on my other table, and i'm arrogant enough to consider myself significantly better than the average $24 Turbo player, i chose discretion.

Upon reflection, i think this was wrong. I love my hand vs. HJ and should be a decent favorite over CO. There's a good chance they have each other's outs (e.g. AJ and AK). While i'm screwed if i lose to HJ, i'm sitting pretty with 8040 of 13500 chips if i win over both. I'm not in horrible shape if i beat HJ and lose to CO (1490 chips, in a virtual 3-way tie for 3rd).

Do you people have any genius analysis? If you agree with folding, how few chips would CO need to have before you'd push?

If you would push in the above scenario, would you also shove if CO had the same stack as you?

How do your answers change if the blinds were 100/200 or 200/400 instead of 150/300?

I think my biggest problem is that i don't know what range to put CO on. What range should i put him on?

TruFloridaGator · #2 07-12-2007, 01:46 AM

This is an easy call, the shove range should be fairly wide & the CO call is possibly even wider. You should push really regardless of what CO has because he's probably not very good & calling with a range that we crush, especially with the overlay.
CO has only a bit more than 5x, so he should be calling very wide in this given situation.

Kevin8423 · #3 07-12-2007, 02:55 AM

Call, and don't be results oriented.

Shillx · #4 07-12-2007, 03:05 AM

Give the HJ the top 20% and the CO the top 8% or so. You figure to have like 50% equity.

AMT · #5 07-12-2007, 03:38 AM

when the stacks become this short youd be shocked how wide shoving and calling ranges become. I'm snap calling with QQ here.

luvrhino · #6 07-12-2007, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
when the stacks become this short youd be shocked how wide shoving and calling ranges become. I'm snap calling with QQ here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, as i mentioned in my post, i thought i should have called…though i considered it a more minor mistake than you guys. While i recognized that blinds suggest aggressiveness, i was just too hesitant to put my chips in with what i estimated to be a 40-45% chance of winning the whole pot (even though that would give me 60% of the chips in play now on the money bubble). I suspect that my calling ranges, in general, and my calling ranges for (essentially) my entire stack, in particular, are too tight for Turbos, as i prefer being the aggressor.

Given that we agree that i screwed up, i’m interested in seeing where the situation becomes marginal and there may be disagreement:

What if i had JJ or AK? I’m more likely to call two All-Ins with AK than JJ due to domination fears, but i’m still going to fold.

If you agree with folding JJ in my spot, how few chips would CO need to have before you shove? I instinctively hate JJ against 2 opponents, so i probably need him to have only 1000-1200 chips before i call.

What if CO also had the same number of chips as me? I probably still should call, but that seems very marginal to me.

What if UTG shoved, HJ shoved, and CO called? I’m certainly folding QQ in that situation.

I’m not paying any consideration to the fact that CO actually had AA, as that’s irrelevant now. What is relevant to me is the correct thought process behind situations like this and how should i navigate scenarios where five people have 4.5-8.5xBB, the big stack has only 13xBB, and blinds are increasing every three minutes. As a non-Turbo Limit SnG player, that’s completely foreign to me, but i’ll want to master it for Turbo NLs.