8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl;dr)

[BadBigBabar]

aaron good post and it touches on some of the things i'm putting into my 5k post. good to see we have similar thought processes on some things. keep on truckin!

[tyler_cracker]

aaron,

very nice, well-written post. this covers a gap in the Micros literature and we are proud to have it.

three major factors in my upbringing have given me at least a little competence in life money management: college education, middle-class family life, cheap/tight/hard-working father. i am always shocked to encounter people who don't understand very simple things about money:

- if you buy that TV, you will not be able to afford rent next month.

- buying that car means taking a loan with worse interest than your credit card.

- lending a bunch of money you cannot afford to a person just as broke as you is not smart.

there are *a lot* of people who struggle with these concepts. poker seems to draw out many of them. OOT (if you'll pardon the example) is filled with threads about problems that could have been solved by appreciating the truthiness of sentences like the ones above.


anyway, to respond to the specific questions at the end of your post:

my attitude towards poker and my bankroll has been a lot like what you described. i have no extra professional income to speak of, so my bankroll exists to support my ability to play poker.

my poker career began with a 2/4 game at Binion's during a vacation in 2004. i invested a few hundred in pocket money (this was when i still had a Real job) in the 3/6 games at Bay101 and Lucky Chances. a few months later i quit my job and moved to South Lake Tahoe to ski at Kirkwood, read WLLH and SSH, and play 3/6 at Harvey's. i moved to vegas in may 2005.

my bankroll has taken me through 4/8 to 6/12, down to 2/4, up to 8/16, and back to 4/8. it has bought me countless dinners, several plane tickets, a few boat dives, and tires for my car.

there were a couple months when i first moved to vegas where i was relying on my bankroll for rent and bills and food. i thought of myself as "playing professionally" and i was shocked at how much it made me hate poker. losing sessions were painfully frustrating, and winning sessions felt like merely making up ground. i was glad when this period ended.

the closest i have been to busto was 150bb for 2/4, the smallest live game available. i was pretty sure that i was crushing live 2/4 (lol), so after going through various emotional stages (frustration, anger, numbness, resignation), i just hoped that it would turn around. eventually it did.

interesting that all my answers have to do with emotional and psychological aspects of bankroll. macguyv's post above me also does this. try as we might, poker players are human and humans are results-oriented. while we always train to divorce ourselves from the results of any given hand, that our value raises will work "in the long run", the bankroll *is* the long run. it's hard to watch your bankroll shrink and think, "i am making good decisions. i am a winning poker player." all of us take pride in our bankroll as proof that we have accomplished something.

i waited overnight to post this in hopes that i would come up with a good conclusion in the morning, but, uh...

[nomadtla]

Wow Aaron, you have allways been a poster I look for and read religiously but you have outdone yourself on this one.

I haven't played in a while for a lot of the reasons that you "warn" about in here.

-Wanting to get rich quick
-Ego
-Sense of entitlement
-Distorted view of money that comes with a bigger roll

These are all things that made me a losing player (along with no skill) when I started in early 2004. Unlike some of you I dug myself a good hole at the start, and for a while was a degen with -2.5K bankroll. To make a long story less long, I found 2+2 in late 2005 and with what I swore was my last $150 climbed out of that hole back into the black, thanks to a lot of hard work and help from you guys and some whoring (back when the whoring was good).

When I reached the black something clicked in me and I went back to my old ways. The difference was this time I had enough skill to sustain and even build on it for a while but that does not last when you're cashing out for "toys" and playing to high. Thankfully I have also become self aware enough to recognize it this time. Hence the stop while I was still in the black. So I decided to take hiatus and get things together. Cashed out a bit to cover some medical bills and car repairs the last few months, but left enough in there to rebuild from. Though on your scale it's near the petty change area.

I guess the above covers most of the first and third set of questions.

My bankroll philosophy is something that I've been giving a lot of thought to these past few months. I wanted to take time and know what I was doing with poker and why. Your post has put into words the conclusion I had been comming to. So at the risk of seeming redundant by quoting your OP I will throw out some of the ideas that stood out to me.

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't even for the semi-pro, who has a regular job and plays for a little bonus income on the side. Instead, this post is for the semi-casual player. The ones who take the game seriously enough to ask the bankroll question, but aren't really looking to have poker winnings represent any part of their regular income.


[/ QUOTE ]

I had gotten into thinking myself semi-pro, when I really just want to be semi-casual. Never thought of it in those terms but that idea alone has opened my eyes to my motivations.

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, your goal is to make your bankroll last for as long as you want to play poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

The paragraphs above that quote and that phrase totally changed the way I will look at my bankroll in the future. It will probably be printed and taped somewhere to keep me focussed.

I hope I've given a decent response. Though I must admit this post has been more for me to work some of my thoughts of the last month out. But I thank you for starting a thread that allowed me to do that, and helped me flesh out those thoughts to give me a starting point to step off from this time.

Again I would like to thank you good sir for a well thought out post on a topic that really doeasn't get the attention it deserves.

Now I'm of with my one Benjamin to take some dimes off suckers [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Peace
Thomas

[neurotiq]

Thanks for the post, Aaron. It came during a time where--until just yesterday--I was on a $230 downswing. Fortunately, yesterday treated me very well, and it's now only a $150 downswing. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

In response to your question, I do tend to very much agree with your conceptions of bankroll management. I've never withdrawn a dime from my poker bankroll and have built up a pretty solid (at least in my opinion) bankroll as a result. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Paradoxically, even though I don't use my bankroll for anything other than poker, I still think of it in terms of actual dollars. When I was on that $230 downswing, I just couldn't stop thinking about all the nice things I could have bought myself with $230. Rationally, I realize this is completely illogical since I never had any plans for using that $230 for anything other than poker. And, yet, I still think of it in terms of such things. I wonder why?

[ckj]

Don't think of downswings in terms of $$$ that's just going to cause you a lot of problems in the long run. I try to think of them in terms of BB, or best yet, ignore the results and play the best game you can. I just pay closer attention to my game during downswings.

This is coming out of a small 100BB downswing that came at the worst possible time, when I decided to move up. Nearly had to drop back down for the 3rd time.

Thanks for the BR tips Aaron, I know this knowledge was hard earned through some painful experience.

When I started, I started with $100 and a plan to 1) hopefully make some money, and 2) have fun playing poker. I started with the boss media sites, because the bonus whoring was good there and ran it up to $300. Then, the UIEGA was passed and I deposited my whole roll into FTP and played .5/1 until I made it up to $400. Withdrew $200 to bonus whore and ran into a nasty downswing that made me lose faster than the bonus would compensate. I really doubted my poker ability at this time, and coupled with the UIEGA, I lost interest and focused on other things. The site lost its cushy bonus so I ended up cashing out for $189, my only cash out to date, and I eventually started playing again at FTP. I'm slowly grinding my way now at .5/1 after having to drop down again and again. Hopefully I'll be here for awhile. I was using the 300BB rule, but I think, since I'm playing 6-max I'll probably move up once I hit 500BB for the next level.

I don't really think of poker money as money. I tend to think of it as points, poker is a game where the better you do in the long run, the more points you will have. So I just try to play my best game, and hope that's enough to make money.

I've never really been close to busto, but having a 200BB downswing was maddening and made me take a break from poker. I think I'm better equipped emotionally to handle these things, but you never really know until you're in one.

[00Snitch]

:grunch:

Nice post.

FWIW, I've always been in the same bankroll philosophy boat. My bankroll pretty much just sits online and does nothing except let me play poker when I want.

However, the reasoning is differnet for me. Being Australian (and this goes for other aussies i think), is that it's alot harder for us to cash out. (imo) the most reliably methods are through either party or stars and since I'm not always playing on those sites, it's a pain to transfer money via neteller, onto the site, play the required number of hands to cash out, then cash out. So as a result, over the couple of years i've played, i've only made a few cashouts and these were big (in proportion to my limits) to cover one off expenses, as you mentioned.


To answer some of the questions you asked:

I've played for about 3yrs total, I started playing semi-casual -> semi-serious about 2 yrs ago.

I first deposited $50 on stars. I donked around for a year or so, playing a few weeks at a time here and there. I made 2 more $50 deposits after going busto a couple of times.

When I started my "semi-casual -> semi-serious" phase, I had $10 in an account on crypto and somehow mannaged to run good enough with that playing 0.25/0.50 FR to clear a $100 bonus I had pending. That set me up to play the micros and I havn't gone busto since - not quite.


[ QUOTE ]

What are your struggles with your bankroll? How have you dealt with bad variance? Have you ever been close to busto? What did you do about it?


[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you should ask this, because that is where I am at right now... I'm just coming back after more than a month off.

A few months ago, I cashed 4k, which was about half my roll. I of course instantly went on a massive downswing. I kept moving down and kept losing until I got to about $600, so I decided to take a break. I'm back now playing 0.50/1.00 to rebuild.

[vixticator]

Great post, one of the top 5 I've read on this site imo. I'll post more thoughts later maybe but good work.

[Smurph64]

One of the things I struggled with in moving up is the timing of when to do it.

As I have read others here post sometimes a move up corresponds with a downswing. This is an important factor to consider.

The psychological impact of losing on a move up is significant because your brain is conditioned to the smaller movement of cash. Essentially a swing of 100 bb is a swing of 200 bb. I ran into that on my first cash out experience.

In reviewing the play I made, I actually was playing better than I was at the lower level but I ran into horrible beats. It happened so quickly but because of the short roll for the level I made the mistake of staying too long.

It would seem logical therefore that we don't move up until we have a roll for the next level but I think that may be a mistake for some of us. Let's face it, building a roll takes time and patience. When we have double the roll for the level we were just at it is a worthy accomplishment. Our tolerance for loss at this point is slim because of the high investment cost of the money we are gambling with.

We are most of us willing to gamble with serial numbers on a 5 dollar bill with 6 other people or spew a dollar into a 14 million to 1 lottery draw in the hopes of winning 5 million because it has a low investment cost and a high reward. When we are supposed to drop down 2 months of salary to buy someone an engagement ring or drop down a few thousand as a down payment for a house we are hesitant but are aware of the fact that the future reward is still great in doing so.

With poker we don't know that we will be getting any future reward. We haven't played at that level we have no history of experience and even if we did it is no guarantee that history repeat itself. For some that may be a good thing because the experience may have been damaging. I for one am likely going to run into some hesitancy when I try and play 5/10 again.

So where does this lead us? Well for me it lead me to two solid conclusions.
First I decided that I would set a bottom bankroll limit for when I would drop down back to a level I had a positive history with. My second decision was that I would not make definitive moves up. In other words I would not wait to play a higher level until I had the bankroll for it.

Rather I would continually take 25 bb shots at the higher levels. In other words I would play 1/2 when I had my minimum bankroll for the lower level plus 25 bb for the level I wanted to take a shot at.

Sometimes this meant I took 5 or 6 shots at the level before I made any head way into it, but grinding up 50 bb at the lower level was not a big deal, even if in fact it turned out to being 300 bb.

By doing this, I actually reduced the psychological impact of the higher level's money flow so that I could justify the dollar swings more readily and detach the purchase value of the money from the investment value.

By looking at the money as investments into opportunity instead of purchasing power we do a lot to diffuse the significance of the money.

By using a bottom management bankroll instead of a minimum bankroll system we free up a lot of the impact of moving up and instead are able to focus on the opportunities.

When I take a 25bb shot at a table and think of it as an investment I actually take my time and decide where the best opportunity is. Sometimes there is no opportunity in relation to the opportunity I would have by playing at the lower stake.

I have no stigma of playing at the lower stake because it is in fact the stake I am rolled for. In fact, I can even take a 25 bb opportunity shot at a level that is 2 levels above my current level if I find a huge opportunity investment.

This process has done a lot for me in terms of removing the challenges I struggled with in moving up for the last 2 years.

Its been 7 months using this method starting from 5 bucks and now I have 1000 in my roll.

For some that means I am rolled for 500 bb at 1/2 but it doesn't mean that for me. I still consider myself rolled for $1 because I haven't won enough at 1/2 to justify any roll being enough to stay there.

It is only when I meet my bottom bankroll requirement that I consider myself having moved up.

My definition of bottom bankroll is simply the bb required to never run out of money 99% of the time at my current win rate and deviation.

[maverickai]

[ QUOTE ]

Big B/R nit. I feel like I have to be because I have tilt problems. I throw stuff against the wall when I'm losing because I shouldn't lose because I'm better than my opponents. Lost 400bb's in my first 35k hands of 5/10. So I want 1000BB's before I move up. $14k right now - I can't wait to hit $16k so I can play 8/16 because I've played the same limit for over a year. My only withdrawl was $10k a year ago to pay for a car. I'm not sure I really have a point here.

[/ QUOTE ]

hah, that applies to me at moments too, i mean the throwing of things against the wall. I've moved down to 0.02/0.04 at UB, then currently at 0.05/0.10 at PS. Seems to be doing well, at least the small bet size is not affecting my playing decisions. Hope to make it up the 'class' of LHE within this year!

And yes Aaron... very good post. Thank you.

[vixticator]

The one thing about moving up is a lot of the time you just get cold decked, sucked out on, basically endure a ton of short term variance and immediately lose say 150 bb's from the level you were just playing within 500-1k hands. That happened to me last night actually. Didn't feel like I was spewing, called a few river raises too many but overall think my session was played reasonably well. And, I just got crushed every hand. Counterfited, river put straight on the board when I had the nuts numerous times, everyone hit two outers and got another bet out of me. Just a dreadful experience. And these things happen and are expected. But when they happen right when you move up it shatters confidence. This is tough to deal with.