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#132
10-08-2007, 05:00 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Or are you going to argue for more suspension of liberty ... [/ QUOTE ] What freedoms have been taken away from us? [/ QUOTE ] Are you looking for in general, or just since 9/11? In general, the freedom to: [*] Produce or refrain from producing as one wants[*] Purchase or refrain from purchasing as one wants[*] Sell or refrain from selling as one wants[*] Associate or refrain from associating as one wants[*] Utilize one's property as one wants[*] Enter into or refrain from entering into contracts as one wants Seeing as these freedoms comprise the whole of economic life, I would say that some important freedoms have been taken away from us. 
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#133
10-08-2007, 05:44 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
Are you looking for in general, or just since 9/11? [/ QUOTE ] Since 9/11. As so many have asserted that we've had "a bunch of rights" taken away since then, attributed to the Patriot Act, etc....I'm just curious as to which specific rights/freedoms we've actually lost. I'm just looking for a simple list. If we're actually losing rights, and I didn't even realize it, I'm going to be pretty pissed. But the more I find difficulty in even getting a simple list, the more I start to think it's more rhetoric than reality.
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#134
10-08-2007, 06:05 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Or are you going to argue for more suspension of liberty ... [/ QUOTE ] What freedoms have been taken away from us? [/ QUOTE ] I suppose you can sign up to any poker site that takes your fancy?
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#135
10-08-2007, 06:28 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What freedoms have been taken away from us? [/ QUOTE ] I suppose you can sign up to any poker site that takes your fancy? [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I can sign up to any poker site that takes my business. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#136
10-08-2007, 06:51 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What freedoms have been taken away from us? [/ QUOTE ] I suppose you can sign up to any poker site that takes your fancy? [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I can sign up to any poker site that takes my business. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Also the context was loss of freedoms post 9/11 due to the war on terror. And rhetorical lists dont cut it. you need specific examples of real individuals who somehow had a freeom taken away that actually impacted them.
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#137
10-08-2007, 06:54 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
Here's a list of freedoms I don't have that people in other countries do for better or for worse:
1. Copy digital music (is it theft if I wouldn't have paid for it anyway?) 2. Prostitution 3. Fully nude, alcohol serving strip clubs 4. speeding 5. drugs 6. drinking a beer in public 7. drinking a beer in the passenger seat of someones moving car 8. avoiding taxes when I am living overseas 9. having more than $10,000 in an overseas bank account without reporting it 10. gambling on the internet 11. scalping tickets 12. cockfights, dogfights, bullfights 13. gay marriage These are just the first few that came to mind. I am sure there are a ton more once you start talking about opening a business. Lots of regulations there...
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#138
10-08-2007, 07:37 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
From a Google search, accurate?
*FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations. *FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once- public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions. *FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation. *RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes. *FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation. *RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial. *RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
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#139
10-08-2007, 07:42 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a list of freedoms I don't have that people in other countries do for better or for worse: 1. Copy digital music (is it theft if I wouldn't have paid for it anyway?) 2. Prostitution 3. Fully nude, alcohol serving strip clubs 4. speeding 5. drugs 6. drinking a beer in public 7. drinking a beer in the passenger seat of someones moving car 8. avoiding taxes when I am living overseas 9. having more than $10,000 in an overseas bank account without reporting it 10. gambling on the internet 11. scalping tickets 12. cockfights, dogfights, bullfights 13. gay marriage These are just the first few that came to mind. I am sure there are a ton more once you start talking about opening a business. Lots of regulations there... [/ QUOTE ] A few of those things are legal in the US, depending on the State, of course.
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#140
10-08-2007, 08:02 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
The "freedom to ride the subway, unfettered from any reasonable random search." I have to admit, this is the first time I've heard that asserted. [/ QUOTE ] Reasonable? Says you. [ QUOTE ] But didn't several recent decisions uphold the right of habeas corpus for citizens, regardless if they were named "enemy combatants"? [/ QUOTE ] You asked what freedoms have been lost since 9/11. The US government held citizens for long periods of time without charges or trial. So yes, your cranium still appears to be extremely thick. The courts can say whatever they want. It doesn't erase those incidents from history. I also think it's clear that the current regime has no respect whatsoever for any sort of constitutional law or due practice, so a mere court decision really doesn't reassure me. Politicians are the masters of loopholes. Or else they will just ignore the decision, as they face no consequences for doing so. Did Rumsfeld go to prison after losing that case? Did he face any negative personal consequences? [ QUOTE ] Which American citizen did this happen too? I'd be interested in learning more about his/her plight. [/ QUOTE ] Scroll up. Jesus Christ. Getting a trial after a [censored] year or whatever it was is not habeas corpus. It doesn't matter what the verdict was. [ QUOTE ] Oh..."The freedom to sell or possess illegal drugs." I concede, that freedom has been "taken away". [/ QUOTE ] Lol. The sad thing is I think you're serious.
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