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#111
10-08-2007, 02:17 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
I did list them... and you reply with non-sequiturs like asking me why I ride the subway or start talking about South Africa or whatever. You can't stick to the point. It's a waste of time. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, ok...I didn't think your list was a serious attempt, considering you listed "I get randomly searched on teh subway" as one of the "freedoms" you lost.....along with "they secretly monitor domestic phone calls, even though we don't know how many because they won't tell us". But let's start over. However, instead of making accusations....just give me a simple list of which freedoms you once had, that you no longer have, that were taken away by the government: So far we have: 1. The freedom to not be randomly searched on the subway, despite voluntarily consenting as a condition of using the convenience. 2. The freedom to not have your domestic phone calls monitored, and then kept a secret from you so that you don't even know if they are being monitored. Ok...what else? 
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#112
10-08-2007, 02:33 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
However, instead of making accusations....just give me a simple list of which freedoms you once had, that you no longer have, that were taken away by the government: [/ QUOTE ] First of all, the discussion is not about the freedoms I've personally lost, it's about whether America is or is becoming a police state. Thus it is relevant to the discussion if ANY American loses freedoms. That said: 1.) That I or anyone else may consent to a loss of freedom for the sake of convenience does not mean there isn't a loss of freedom. No, the subway thing isn't a big deal to me, it just has a very "police state" kind of feeling to me. That's why I mentioned it. 2.) Suspension of habeas corpus is the major one and has been mentioned many times in this thread by many posters, but your cranium is seemingly too thick to allow this information to penetrate. All it takes is the government to label you an "enemy combatant", a completely arbitrary designation, for any reason whatsoever, and you can be abducted without charges then sent to a foreign country and tortured. This has already happened to at least one American citizen, probably more.. I don't keep up with the news. 3.) I also mentioned the imprisonment of millions upon millions for victimless crimes. It's easy for you to dismiss this since it doesn't affect you, but I think those imprisoned and their families will likely feel differently, as do I.
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#113
10-08-2007, 02:45 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
I like Keith Olberman's comment. Without Habeus Corpus, if the feds throw you into one of their secret prisons, and you have no access to a lawyer, and detained without a trial, how exactly are you going to "prove" you're a citizen?
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#114
10-08-2007, 02:47 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
Very good. And since you know so much about him... [/ QUOTE ] I actually don't know that much about him.....but it really wasn't that hard, if you look at the name of the image, it was "jose-padilla.jpg". A quick google query tells me he was tried and convicted for being a terrorist. That he spent 3 years locked up awaiting a trial makes it understandable that some folks would mistakenly believe he was never afforded one....but in the end, habeas corpus prevailed, and I don't really have much sympathy for a terrorist in the first place. In short, I don't think he was "just anyone", nor did he get innocently plucked from the streets while going about his business and then wrongfully detained. And more to the original point, he was most certainly provided a trial. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#115
10-08-2007, 02:55 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
With Padilla, the government was fighting his ability to get a trial every step of the way. The fact he got a trial was a miracle, and his lawyers had to go to the US Supreme Court. This was all before the suspension of Habeus Corpus for non-citizens.
Oh, Padilla was a US Citizen btw. When you're given the title "enemy combatant", you have no rights as a prisoner of war under the Geneva convention. You have no rights under the Constitution. You're just stuck. You have to wonder if it happened to Padilla, how many more this is happening to now. I'm sure the government doesn't exactly wanna make that list public.
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#116
10-08-2007, 03:10 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
That said: 1.) That I or anyone else may consent to a loss of freedom for the sake of convenience does not mean there isn't a loss of freedom. No, the subway thing isn't a big deal to me, it just has a very "police state" kind of feeling to me. That's why I mentioned it. [/ QUOTE ] The "freedom to ride the subway, unfettered from any reasonable random search." I have to admit, this is the first time I've heard that asserted. Since you said yourself it wasn't a big deal, we won't spend much time on it. Moving ahead.... [ QUOTE ] Suspension of habeas corpus is the major one and has been mentioned many times in this thread by many posters, but your cranium is seemingly too thick to allow this information to penetrate. [/ QUOTE ] But didn't several recent decisions uphold the right of habeas corpus for citizens, regardless if they were named "enemy combatants"? You are asserting that "my thick cranium" is not allowing this information you assert to penetrate, but have you considered that this information you assert is not accurate? For example, in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, the court re-confirmed the right of United States citizens to habeas corpus even when declared an enemy combatant. The Court affirmed the basic principle that habeas corpus of a citizen could not be revoked. Please tell me which part of the court's decision says it's okay to deny citizens the right of habeas corpus...because it certainly looks to me like it says exactly the opposite. In short, my "thick cranium" won't accept the claim that habeas corpus has been suspended for American citizens, because that information doesn't appear to be true. [ QUOTE ] All it takes is the government to label you an "enemy combatant", a completely arbitrary designation, for any reason whatsoever, and you can be abducted without charges then sent to a foreign country and tortured. This has already happened to at least one American citizen, probably more.. [/ QUOTE ] Which American citizen did this happen too? I'd be interested in learning more about his/her plight. [ QUOTE ] 3.) I also mentioned the imprisonment of millions upon millions for victimless crimes. It's easy for you to dismiss this since it doesn't affect you, but I think those imprisoned and their families will likely feel differently, as do I. [/ QUOTE ] Oh..."The freedom to sell or possess illegal drugs." I concede, that freedom has been "taken away".
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#117
10-08-2007, 03:14 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
With Padilla, the government was fighting his ability to get a trial every step of the way. The fact he got a trial was a miracle. [/ QUOTE ] What can I say, miracles happen....either way, the guy got a trial.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] Oh, Padilla was a US Citizen btw. [/ QUOTE ] Ya, and he was a terrorist too.... [ QUOTE ] When you're given the title "enemy combatant", you have no rights as a prisoner of war under the Geneva convention. You have no rights under the Constitution. You're just stuck. [/ QUOTE ] Um...if you're a citizen, you have habeas corpus. [ QUOTE ] You have to wonder if it happened to Padilla, how many more this is happening to now. I'm sure the government doesn't exactly wanna make that list public. [/ QUOTE ] I'd guess zero. How many would you guess?
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#118
10-08-2007, 03:15 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] That said: 1.) That I or anyone else may consent to a loss of freedom for the sake of convenience does not mean there isn't a loss of freedom. No, the subway thing isn't a big deal to me, it just has a very "police state" kind of feeling to me. That's why I mentioned it. [/ QUOTE ] The "freedom to ride the subway, unfettered from any reasonable random search." I have to admit, this is the first time I've heard that asserted. Since you said yourself it wasn't a big deal, we won't spend much time on it. [/ QUOTE ] Can I introduce you to this slope? It is getting slippery. Subway. Car. Walking down the street. In your home. Etc. Etc.
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#120
10-08-2007, 03:37 PM
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Re: Watch Out For Ron Paul
C'mon guys, I know there has to be more to it than this? I always hear people griping about all these "freedoms" we've lost, and do you really mean to tell me when we get down to talking details we basically come up with this list:
1. The freedom to use illegal drugs. 2. The freedom to not be searched on public transportation, despite giving voluntary consent. There has GOT to be more than this.....please tell me this is not what all the fuss is about....
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