Memorizing mucked upcards in Stud

[SuperUberBob]

Here are some situations:

1. I am playing in a middle/high limit live Stud game. Unfortunately, I have a horrible memory and cannot memorize any of the mucked upcards. However, my opponents can memorize all mucked upcards with 100% clarity. How big of a disadvantage is that for me?

2. What if I am the only one able to see all the mucked upcards with 100% clarity and nobody else can?

3. Are there Stud cash games where it is unnecessary to memorize these folded cards to have an edge against your opponents? Or is memorization mandatory?

[PoorLawyer]

1. big disadvantage
2. big advantage
3. against a table of blind people (this is not much of a stretch given the demographics of most stud games I've played)

[RustyBrooks]

Take a look at some drawing tables, like flush/straight draws, or two-pair/trip draws, with given numbers of cards out. It can be a *very* big difference. Unless your game typically has monster pots with multiple people in them with not much, you have a big advantage if you can modify your drawing odds (and your opponent's drawing odds) given the available cards. Even better if you can effectively narrow their holdings given the out cards.

What I'm curious about is method... I'm playing razz now and it's easy... for stud, do you think of... A A 2 7 7 9 J K, 2 clubs, 2 diamonds, 3 spades, 1 heart, or do you remember them along with suit? For razz I just briefly memorize all the cards in order, and then forget them on 5th because it doesn't really matter any more most of the time.

[PoorLawyer]

I typically look to see if my hand is playable in a vacuum or maybe as a steal given position, if not look at another table. If so, then look to see if i'm live and am going to play (depending on the betting of course). If so, then I do a A,K,K,T,9 thing and note if there are a lot of one suit out. If I am playing in a tough game or higher stakes sometimes i will just type them into the chat box if I have time/not too many other tables open.

In a live game, might as well memorize the cards and pay attention even if i'm not going to play a hand as it all goes so slow and there are not too many other distractions and you can get other information that you can't get online.

[cgrohman]

You also need to use the information you obtain by memorizing the upcards. just knowing what they are does little.

[Andy B]

I have trouble remembering all the up-cards myself. I've worked on this some and I do a lot better than I used to. In 2000 and 2001, when I was playing a lot of live low-limit stud, I took a certain amount of money off of people who could remember every card when I couldn't come close, because they sucked at poker. Being able to remember all the up-cards and recognize how they impact the various hands is very important to true expert play. True expert play is not necessary to win in most games.

The FAQ is a cracking read. It links a couple of classic posts by DocAZ about improving your card memory.

[Red_Diamond]

I only play lowstakes so maybe I have no business posting here, but I have a terrible short term memory as well. However, I think I do ok at stud counts, despite this is one issue that used to make me worry in the beginning. I'll do 3 tables now and it just comes naturally, but I do have some short cuts.

Any time I play a hand on third street, I always look AT EVERY card first. I don't need to memorize here, just look at what's visible. Most times I'm not playing a weak burried pair for example, if even one of that rank is already out. And if my kicker is out, that is instantly commited to memory(and fairly hard to forget for the next 40 seconds). I am always keeping count of my visible outs. The same goes for straight and 3-flush starts. I always count how many cards are avail. And update the number on the next round of betting. At any round, I don't have a need to go back to a previous round and try to remember what was out there by every one.

Extra notes, ALWAYS use 4-color decks. When most cards out are red on 3'rd, and suddenly a low blue card starts out betting on fourth when catching another blue, that should tell you something. This is pretty different from a red card catching a red and then betting in the same spot.

Yes, maybe he spiked trips if the 4'th card is live, but sure be scared if he hits another diamond. A little count of your OUTS, and 4-color deck goes a long way.

BTW, I NEVER run exact counts of every suit out (maybe some ultra high-stakes players do). The human brain is good at pattern recognition, so clumps of colours gives me a good ballpark figure.

It doesnt matter if there was just 1 blue card out or 2, earlier that you've seen and can't remember for sure. You do know that the number was quite low and that's a good bonus.

Why some people would still use 2-color in stud I have no idea(aside from a site giving no option), except that bad habbits die hard and some people are very resistant to change. That is good for the rest of us though.

[Rush17]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are some situations:

1. I am playing in a middle/high limit live Stud game. Unfortunately, I have a horrible memory and cannot memorize any of the mucked upcards. However, my opponents can memorize all mucked upcards with 100% clarity. How big of a disadvantage is that for me?

2. What if I am the only one able to see all the mucked upcards with 100% clarity and nobody else can?

3. Are there Stud cash games where it is unnecessary to memorize these folded cards to have an edge against your opponents? Or is memorization mandatory?

[/ QUOTE ]


Having the ability to remember the upcards is just another piece of the puzzle that adds to your overall edge(if you ever had one to begin with). Of course, having an ability and not having the knowledge as to how it sholud be applied, is not going to do you much good.

If a player has an uncanny ability in remembering all of the upcards, but he fails in just about all of the other areas(hand reading skills, the understanding and application of pot odds, tilts easily etc.), then his ability in memorizing the upcards probably won't be as useful to him as it obviously would be to someone who did possess alot of the traits that defines being a solid poker player.

Not having a good memory of the upcards is definitely putting you at a disadvantage. That's not to say that you couldn't be a winning player or that you might even be the best player in the game despite of it all. But, if you did possess that ability and put it into use along with all of your other ones, then I'm sure your overall expectations would/should be higher.

[Andy B]

You do realize that the four-color deck is grounds for banning around here, right? The four-color deck is just wrong.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
You do realize that the four-color deck is grounds for banning around here, right? The four-color deck is just wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, what?