Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement

[alex-star]

Looks like a hugely +EV situation to me.

[durron597]

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I know what you mean and I hope that my first reply wasn't too harsh. My impression is that we are talking at cross-purposes. When you are starting with sngs you learn to play ubertight which is certainly better than playing too loose. However, I read Collin like he recommended not missing out on the +ev-Situations early. Calling huge raises with 76s isn't the way to go, but raising 76s on the button against nits (with 8/5 or so) in the blinds is.

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risking 120 to win 60 doesn't sound like my idea of a +ev spot in a tournament

say we raise to 120 on the button in level 2 in a full tilt sng with 76[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and tight blinds. Flop KT8 with one diamond and the BB checks, what do you do

[Pudge714]

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[ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean and I hope that my first reply wasn't too harsh. My impression is that we are talking at cross-purposes. When you are starting with sngs you learn to play ubertight which is certainly better than playing too loose. However, I read Collin like he recommended not missing out on the +ev-Situations early. Calling huge raises with 76s isn't the way to go, but raising 76s on the button against nits (with 8/5 or so) in the blinds is.

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risking 120 to win 60 doesn't sound like my idea of a +ev spot in a tournament

say we raise to 120 on the button in level 2 in a full tilt sng with 76[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and tight blinds. Flop KT8 with one diamond and the BB checks, what do you do

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Durron,
That example brings up a good point. I think a lot of people should be able to play 76s profitably preflop from the button in L1. The problem is people don't know what to do on that flop, not that your preflop opening range is too wide.

[xPeru]

V Interesting thread. Massive value for Colin - but will his editor see it? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

FWIW:

1. There is a huge armoury of moves which can be made in NL. To succeed you need to learn them eg PF shove, button limp, UTG limp, Stop n Go, Go n Go etc.

2. You need to know when to use them, which takes two things; understanding the maths and understanding the villains.

3. STTs are fantastic for learning the maths. Ring games are fantastic for learning the reads. MTTs are fantastic for learning the moves. HU deep stack SNGs need you to put all of them together, so I think Colin is right in recommending them as part of the learning experience. From my own learning path (straight up the cliff face) I didn't become a winning player without having a lot of experience at all these disciplines (and threw in some PLO etc as well - 3rd in Trout HORSE last night for example, won a 109 STT and moneyed the 11r too).

4. I think the mistake is to recommend HU SNGs for developing SNG specific post-flop skills. Vide Durron's post. And although I agree with him, I also agree that Futuredoc85 has a very important contribution in saying that STTs have changed, and L1 & L2 are now important places to pick up chips from TAGs, even more so when blinds are 25/50. However, the SNG specific post-flop skills here are perhaps better learned by shortstacking 6 max ring!

Anyway, I wish you good luck with the book.

[Madd]

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I know what you mean and I hope that my first reply wasn't too harsh. My impression is that we are talking at cross-purposes. When you are starting with sngs you learn to play ubertight which is certainly better than playing too loose. However, I read Collin like he recommended not missing out on the +ev-Situations early. Calling huge raises with 76s isn't the way to go, but raising 76s on the button against nits (with 8/5 or so) in the blinds is.

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risking 120 to win 60 doesn't sound like my idea of a +ev spot in a tournament

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That depends on how often the blinds fold. If you win the blinds 5 out of 6 times, it surely is +ev.

Later you are willing to risk not only 120, but your whole stack to win the blinds with 76s from the button [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Collin Moshman]

Hi Guys,

Raising small from the button during early SNG play can certainly by +Equity, although I concede "frequently" overstates it.

During peak times, higher buyins are often filled with guys who are, say, 9/7/3 after many hands. And there are many other regulars even with higher VPIP's that you know from experience will not get involved in low-blind pots unless they can be the aggressor with a decent hand. (Or they have a cheap must-call situation, such as completing for an extra t10 from the SB with a small pocket pair after many limpers.)

So suppose the blinds are t15-t30 and you are the button against two such blinds who play super-tight early. If everyone folds to you, raising to t75 or so can be a defitively profitable play.

This is because if we assume the blinds will each play around the top 10%, then we win the blinds uncontested around 85% of the time (SNGPT).

So our chip expectation is:

t45 x 0.85 - t75 x 0.15 = t27

So even if every time the blinds have a good enough hand to play you lose the pot, you still make over a 33% return on your chip investment from the steal opportunity alone.

And when you do get action, you will usually lose a small pot -- but when you do win, the pots will tend to be substantially larger. This is because you have position against an opponent whose play at 15-30 is predictable, and when you have position against a predictable opponent, it is not hard to both know how large a pot you want to play, as well as the best way to manipulate it to that size. (This latter quality is another example of the benefits of getting decent at HU no-limit.)

In summary, if you know the blinds won't call pre-flop raises during low-blind play without a strong hand, small button open-raises can indeed be profitable.

Best Regards,
Collin

[dfan]

Aren't we making this argument about proper early sng play style more complicated than it has to be?

As an example, whether you should be raising 87s from the button is an ICM $EV problem, not a philosophical one. Arguing "tight-is-right" versus "don't be scared to play a flop" doesn't really add a lot of useful information. In the end it is an issue of whether this play is +$EV after making assumptions about opponents' calling/reraising ranges & their post-flop playing skill/style. (Plus some metagame considerations.)

Same applies to whether it is better to have 8x1500 tables versus 4x3500 + 4x0 tables. It's just math, including an allowance for the time each takes.

[citanul]

collin,

are you really thinking that the regulars at any game 100+ buyin are so unobservant that they won't notice that you play looser early on than everyone else? or are you assuming that you only play like once a week and they won't catch on?

[suzzer99]

If people are observant then I think it's more of a reason to raise 87s every now and then. So they won't put on supernit range early. Just be careful not to use this to justify all kinds of idiocy.

[Austiger]

I don't think Collin's book is for $100+ buyin players.