11s: turn semibluff, river bluff

[James.]

what's up dudes. first post in this forum. i typically play cash games(mostly limit), but getting caught up in the bright lights, beautiful women, and fast cars of the tournament life i could not keep from getting lured in. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] anyway, what do you guys think about this hand. it is verse the deep stack at the table which i thought in and of itself would "protect" my bluff so to speak. also, it should be mentioned i have a very tight image thus far. here's the hand as best i remember:

Me-2400 in chips(give me a while and i'll get the cool abbreviations down; should that be t2400?).

Villain-8100 in chips(after a 4 way all-in on the FIRST hand in which i raised to twice the BB with AKo and folded when it came around to me; villain had AA).

BB-1900 in chips

anyway, villain limps under the gun(blinds are 100/200), i make a marginal completion from the SB with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], BB checks.

Flop(3players): T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checks around.

Turn(3players): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

i bet 300(1/2 the pot), BB folds, UTG calls.

River(2 players): Kx

i bet the pot...what is okay or wrong with this hand. guys, i have very, very little tournament experience so i have alot to learn. thanks in advance.

[James.]

i'm about to curl up into the fetal position as a result of neglect. before i do that, bet more on the turn? and also whatever specifics you don't like in the format or if i omitted something please let me know. or if the hand just sucks or is standard/boring that's okay too. thanks for the help.

[Tickner]

I check/fold every street. Your hand isnt great and you wont win a showdown very often. I do not see a point in trying to bet out villian.

-Tickner

[ldavidjm]

There's no reason to be semi-bluffing with a hand as weak as yours early, especially in an 11. Donks love to call, and bluffing them is a losing proposition. Just play solid hands and value-bet early, open up and push later.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no reason to be semi-bluffing with a hand as weak as yours early, especially in an 11. Donks love to call, and bluffing them is a losing proposition. Just play solid hands and value-bet early, open up and push later.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, this is not a standard pf play for me first of all. getting 5-1 immediately with the deepstacks implied odds i felt i could call. on the flop i'm check folding. when i turn the spade draw, as straightforward as the table was playing and as tight as my image was i thought i would make a bit of a play. when the king fell on the river i thought a c-bet would take it down. obviously if raised on the turn or river i release with my tail between my legs.

[cakewalk]

[ QUOTE ]
C: I think that moving up by making money by playing is good. If you don't start actually learning things at some point you're going to have massive trouble, as the game you brought to the 11s is going to be basically the same one you bring to the 50s. The thing is that your ROI is going to steadily drop as you move up stakes. Instead of dropping and staying positive, it'll often drop to zero or negative. I think that people undervalue looking over their hands and figuring out if or when they made mistakes. The games we are looking at are very finite. This means that they are good in a number of ways, but it also means that you can screw up all the work you put in to one game by making one stupid mistake. And people make stupid mistakes all the time, for a variety of reasons. Making the same mistake again and again because you never looked it over to figure out that it is a mistake is damn near inexcusable.

C: I try to keep a few things in mind whenever I’m playing, and they're basically the same things I’ve always tried to remember when I play sngs.

1) My opponents, with rare exceptions, are morons. They want to give their money away. They may not know it yet, but every time they enter a tournament they are actively trying to throw away money.

2) There is very little reason to do anything fancy in a sng. The stacks are short, the blinds are big. If you play your big hands against stupid people in straightforward fashion, you're going to get the money in the long run. If you similarly don't do incredibly dumb things in the late game, you'll be fine. If you fold when your opponent who plays obviously tells you that you are beat, you'll be ok in the long run.

3) At the low stakes, everyone underestimates just how much money you are making by waiting for morons to bust each other. The amount of money that you make passively by NOT getting involved is enormous.

4) There's almost no reason ever to play a sng with hard competition. There's just going to be another one coming up soon. A sng should just never have me, Newt, Curtains, and Gramps in it. They have, and it's mostly because we're lazy [censored]holes. Well, Curtains says he likes playing hard competition.” But, that's just short for being a lazy [censored]hole.

5) Which is basically (2) re-wrapped, patience is a huge virtue. Lots of people start pushing too soon, some wait until too late. Not getting frustrated with a cold run of cards is huge part of keeping yourself sane. Sometimes you're just going to get dealt 30 crappy hands in a row while you blind yourself down in the mid stages of a tournament. Learn to say "Oh Well." Also, be sure not to miss your any-two pushes.

The key is just not doing stupid stuff. Doing smart stuff should basically be reserved for when you have good reads.

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[ldavidjm]

I think pf is fine, i don't mind completing from the SB at early levels, your implied odds are great. I just don't think your draw combined with your fold equity against two players makes the turn semibluff profitable. And your river bluff is certainly not profitable, just because an overcard came does not mean that mr. donk is going to fold his pair of 7's. like ever.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think pf is fine, i don't mind completing from the SB at early levels, your implied odds are great. I just don't think your draw combined with your fold equity against two players makes the turn semibluff profitable. And your river bluff is certainly not profitable, just because an overcard came does not mean that mr. donk is going to fold his pair of 7's. like ever.

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appreciate it man.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
C: I think that moving up by making money by playing is good. If you don't start actually learning things at some point you're going to have massive trouble, as the game you brought to the 11s is going to be basically the same one you bring to the 50s. The thing is that your ROI is going to steadily drop as you move up stakes. Instead of dropping and staying positive, it'll often drop to zero or negative. I think that people undervalue looking over their hands and figuring out if or when they made mistakes. The games we are looking at are very finite. This means that they are good in a number of ways, but it also means that you can screw up all the work you put in to one game by making one stupid mistake. And people make stupid mistakes all the time, for a variety of reasons. Making the same mistake again and again because you never looked it over to figure out that it is a mistake is damn near inexcusable.

C: I try to keep a few things in mind whenever I’m playing, and they're basically the same things I’ve always tried to remember when I play sngs.

1) My opponents, with rare exceptions, are morons. They want to give their money away. They may not know it yet, but every time they enter a tournament they are actively trying to throw away money.

2) There is very little reason to do anything fancy in a sng. The stacks are short, the blinds are big. If you play your big hands against stupid people in straightforward fashion, you're going to get the money in the long run. If you similarly don't do incredibly dumb things in the late game, you'll be fine. If you fold when your opponent who plays obviously tells you that you are beat, you'll be ok in the long run.

3) At the low stakes, everyone underestimates just how much money you are making by waiting for morons to bust each other. The amount of money that you make passively by NOT getting involved is enormous.

4) There's almost no reason ever to play a sng with hard competition. There's just going to be another one coming up soon. A sng should just never have me, Newt, Curtains, and Gramps in it. They have, and it's mostly because we're lazy [censored]holes. Well, Curtains says he likes playing hard competition.” But, that's just short for being a lazy [censored]hole.

5) Which is basically (2) re-wrapped, patience is a huge virtue. Lots of people start pushing too soon, some wait until too late. Not getting frustrated with a cold run of cards is huge part of keeping yourself sane. Sometimes you're just going to get dealt 30 crappy hands in a row while you blind yourself down in the mid stages of a tournament. Learn to say "Oh Well." Also, be sure not to miss your any-two pushes.

The key is just not doing stupid stuff. Doing smart stuff should basically be reserved for when you have good reads.

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the light just came on.