NL50 - JJ in a RR pott

[mackan]

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

No reads, first hand at the table. Is this standard?

MP: $48.95
CO: $33.20
BTN: $69.05
Hero (SB): $49.50
BB: $11.05
UTG: $97.80

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $2</font>, MP folds, CO calls $2, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.50</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $6.50, CO calls $6.50

Flop: ($26) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $19</font>, UTG calls $19, CO folds

Turn: ($64) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: ($64) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $70.30 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $64 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG mucked and WON $61 (+$33.50 NET)

[PietM]

Preflop and river are standard IMO.

I'd bet a little less on the flop. In a reraised pot you can make smaller continuation bets, I'd bet 15-16 here.

I think check/folding is too weak here. But once you get called I don't think there's much you can do, especially since the A hit the river that connects to so many hands that take this preflop line.

[matrix]

this can't be your 1st hand at table you is in the SB &lt;/pedant&gt;

don't 3bet JJ readless vs an EP opener who will have position on you after the flop.

Flop CB is way too big - you've now put in 2/3 of your stack .

River - you've priced yourself in for a crying call as the pot is paying ~4:1 and you only beat a bluff.

Push the turn and hope that AK feels priced in and calls or that Villain is bluffing somehow.

I think it's much better to flat call here and play a smaller pot OOP. If we had some goot reads on villains postflop play then a 3bet is better but I don't think so here.

[mackan]

Ok, you´re right. First orbit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

"don't 3bet JJ readless vs an EP opener who will have position on you after the flop." I think you are wrong here. JJ is a strong hand. Just callin in the BB makes the hand så hard to play. My goal is to play the hand against one OP. Not to play a threeway pot OOP.

Looking at the hand i agree that my CB is a little big.

[matrix]

if we play a small 3way pot OOP our implied odds are much better than a big pot HU OOP.

We have to give credit to EP raiser for a goot hand that we are a coinflip against (unpaired OC's to our Jacks) or crushed by (QQ+) most of the time - yes he has a smaller pp here sometimes. Then the CO flats. Hmmm well it's a squeeze opportunity, but that turns our JJ into a bluff - and given that the villains know about as much about us as we do about them (nothing) I think it's a little less likely that they fold. I think that if we are wanting to squeeze here I'd bump it to ~$15. If UTG calls our Potsized raise it gives CO plenty juicy odds to call with whatever he's got as well - we are just setting ourselves up for a tough hand here unless we flop a set.

As it turned out instead of playing a small pot 3ways OOP with great implied odds we are now playing a huge pot 3ways OOP with terrible Reverse Implied odds and all our options suck.

I think that what it comes down to is we have no [censored] clue about what calling ranges UTG + CO have in 3bet pots and until we have some idea of what those ranges are we do better to keep the pots smaller.

The river choices we have here suck - calling is bad cos we are almost always beat, folding is bad cos the pot is BIG and our turn check might have induced a bluff from something like TT (or worse KK) - tho it's odds on Villain holds AK/AQ here.

Whenever we end up in a [censored] spot on teh river it usually means we have messed up earlier streets.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Just callin in the BB makes the hand så hard to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

as opposed to your line, which as we can see worked out great

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[infinity235]

I call preflop for set value. No one else doing this? I mean, against a UTG raiser on which I have no reads, I play ultratight...

[toddxlogan]

You guys really flat JJ here from the SB? Wow, thats news to me. But if both Matrix and AMA are doing it here I am really curious . . . maybe I am missing something.

You must 3-bet QQ here, right? Do you flat JJ but raise QQ? Is is really so close that AQ makes up enough of villain's range/the added chance of 4 more possible overcards flopping to make JJ a call but QQ a raise? AMA, Matrix, any other prominent posters i would REALLY REALLY REALLY like to hear from you guys on this. It seems to me there is a good amount of dead money in the middle, we have a random unknown at UNL, and we have a damn strong hand. OTOH, getting called here (especially in multiple spots) kind of blows. But i've religiously raised this since i started playing this game. Leak?

Also, flop lead is kind of meh against two players. If I do lead its for less, something like 14. Thats the last dime I put in unless I spike a J or villain bets some stupidly small amount.

I also would check this fairly often here (weak?) planning on calling 1 bet somewhere but not two. Weak?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys really flat JJ here from the SB? Wow, thats news to me. But if both Matrix and AMA are doing it here I am really curious . . . maybe I am missing something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally depends, but you know nothing about anyone so I err on the side of caution

[matrix]

IF I think that CO and or UTG calls me here oftentimes with hands worse than JJ then I 3bet.

If I think CO and UTG are tight enough to fold to a 3bet here then I 3bet.

I I know *nothing* about either player i) I tend not to sit at the table in the first place when I can mine 30 hands simply and have some idea of their playing styles before I sit. ii) err on the side of caution until I have a few postflop reads.

Yes JJ is a strong hand - but ALWAYS doing x in any given situation is a leak.

See AMA's "JJ from the SB" monster thread from last week for a range of opinions on that from a few respected SSNLers.