5/10 NL live double checkraise and possible sick river call

[McStinky]

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River is a definite fold, if he has a good read on you he can valuetown you far too easily. I like a check behind on the turn, in which case you can call the river. Betting the turn just opens you up to unnecessary variance and doesn't really get you any meaningful value. If you are going to bet, put him to a difficult decision by betting big rather than weak.

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Lol, I would say "unnecessary variance" is one of the reasons why I play poker for a living [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. Like I said, I knew I was good and wanted to induce a bluff, but I guess people here aren't down with that.

[sards]

I agree with most of the posters who say check behind on the turn and call any river bet. I think when you are this deep and you only have 1 pair, pot control becomes more important than trying to get max value on the turn. This is even more true when the villain is like the one you described, who is capable of bluffing this river after pulling a double-checkraise bluff.

[McStinky]

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I agree with most of the posters who say check behind on the turn and call any river bet. I think when you are this deep and you only have 1 pair, pot control becomes more important than trying to get max value on the turn. This is even more true when the villain is like the one you described, who is capable of bluffing this river after pulling a double-checkraise bluff.

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Aargh, if he is capable of all this bluffing then I should do what it takes to make him bluff, right!?

[wazz]

Yes, but you don't know for sure that he is bluffing, which is why we try to exercise pot control so he can't valuetown us.

[sards]

The point is, by playing the hand the way you did, you put yourself in a very tough situation where you might have to call on the river with one pair for a 900bb pot. Whether you should call or not, and whether you took the best line in this hand, depends on how often the villain will make huge insane multi-street bluffs like this. And since you probably don't know the exact frequency with which he will do that, and since it is probably less frequent than you might think during the heat of the moment, I think it's probably more +EV to take the safer line.

Now, if you are really certain that you have the best hand on the turn after he check-raises you, you might as well 3-bet him, for a couple of reasons: 1. He probably still has plenty of outs to the best hand on the river. There are lots of scare cards that could come out. 3-betting protects your hand. 2. You can't assume that he will bluff the river if he misses. And he certainly won't call a value-bet if he misses and checks.

[McStinky]

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The point is, by playing the hand the way you did, you put yourself in a very tough situation where you might have to call on the river with one pair for a 900bb pot. Whether you should call or not, and whether you took the best line in this hand, depends on how often the villain will make huge insane multi-street bluffs like this. And since you probably don't know the exact frequency with which he will do that, and since it is probably less frequent than you might think during the heat of the moment, I think it's probably more +EV to take the safer line.

Now, if you are really certain that you have the best hand on the turn after he check-raises you, you might as well 3-bet him, for a couple of reasons: 1. He probably still has plenty of outs to the best hand on the river. There are lots of scare cards that could come out. 3-betting protects your hand. 2. You can't assume that he will bluff the river if he misses. And he certainly won't call a value-bet if he misses and checks.

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Yeah, whether I should 3-bet the turn is a kind of interesting question. I was almost positive that if he was bluffing, then he would fire another big barrel on the river. And I wasn't worried about scare cards because he would see them as scaring me and still bet. I probably should have called the turn and planned on calling on any river except an 8, J, or K.

[jlocdog]

"Aargh, if he is capable of all this bluffing then I should do what it takes to make him bluff, right!?"

That is one hell of a read to want to put in 900BB with TPTK my friend. Especially on such a coordinated board such as this given PF action....

[cero_z]

Hi McStinky,

I understand your thought process here; you have a stronger hand than you would need to raise pre-flop and bet this flop, your opponent knows this, and he's very bluff-happy, so you are trying to induce a huge bluff and pick it off. Fine; not a bad strategy in general. But here, your hand is simply not strong enough to risk that.

If you had 2 pair or a set on the flop, your play would make much more sense; maneuver him into making a big move when he's a 2:1 dog or worse. Similarly, you could do this on a less coordinated board with just tptk or an overpair. Here, you made the mistake of thinking that you could spring the trap with just a pair on a board that contains all sorts of ways for you to be crushed.

As played, you should've checked the turn behind IMO with the plan of calling a lot on even terrible-looking rivers like this one (since your opponent is nuts), or better yet, you should've checked behind on the flop and rope-a-doped the rest of the hand. In other words, pot control, even though this is the type of player that you sometimes wouldn't have to use pot control against with tptk. On this board, you do.

[Requin]

Cero I disagree, its pretty easy to put villain on a jack here if we think he was bluffing the flop, and in position this makes our hand really easy to play. Snap fold a K or an 8 and call any blank river. A jack is the only iffy card since he could have AJ but it's still a fairly easy fold.

Oh yeah a board pairing card is not great for us but we still have a solid call.

[McStinky]

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Cero I disagree, its pretty easy to put villain on a jack here if we think he was bluffing the flop, and in position this makes our hand really easy to play. Snap fold a K or an 8 and call any blank river. A jack is the only iffy card since he could have AJ but it's still a fairly easy fold.

Oh yeah a board pairing card is not great for us but we still have a solid call.

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It would be cool if I could put him on 9J, TJ, QJ, or AJ from the preflop, flop and turn action, and then rule out two pair from the way he bet the river, and then confidently call because he has AJ. But pretending to be able to read someone that well is silly. You are right that folding is the right play.