Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Small Stakes Limit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-02-2007, 10:36 AM
Yodaman Yodaman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 88
Default 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

So I'm a long time lurker, hit 21 recently and have been hitting up local casinos for some time now.

So, even though the "advice" or critique about how aggressive I am shouldn't exactly be taken from the various donks/fish at the table I was still wonder if making thin value raises is worth it.

Hand 1:

My image has been a fairly solid image thus far, maybe a little over aggro.

Villain in the hand is fairly loose passive, saw c/c top pair whole way 2-3 times even in unraised pots top kicker.

Hero is Button with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

1 limps, Villain limps, 1 MP Raise , Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB and limpers all call, raiser calls.

4 to flop
K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checks to Hero, Hero bets, 2 calls, Villain c/raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, 1 call, villain caps, Hero calls, 1 call.

3 to turn
7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Villain bets, Hero calls, 1 call

3 to river
7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

1 mucks (missed spade draw probably), Villain bets, Hero...

Reads:
At this point I put him on K9, 22, or 99. He wouldn't 3-bet with 22 or 99 fearing the KK, so is it worth gaining/losing the extra bet here?

Hand 2:

Hero's image is somewhat loose, raising preflop and folding flop/turn for quite a few hands up to now.

Villain is a Thinking LAGfish, but has been hitting cards for quite some time now.

Hero is CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

1 limp, Villain Raises, Hero 3-bet, all fold, villain calls.

2 to flop:
3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villain donk bets, Hero raises, villain calls

2 to turn:
5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Villain checks, Hero checks planning for cheap showdown

2 to river:
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Villain bets, Hero?

Reads
Villain would 3-bet with AT, with 2-pair, and a set on the flop from what I've seen in the past. Villain is capable of 3-betting only with stronger than TP here.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-02-2007, 11:21 AM
Aces McGee Aces McGee is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Jammin\' at dude\'s house
Posts: 4,429
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

[ QUOTE ]
Reads
Villain would 3-bet with AT, with 2-pair, and a set on the flop from what I've seen in the past. Villain is capable of 3-betting only with stronger than TP here

[/ QUOTE ]

At least as important as this info is what he'll call with if you raise.

-McGee
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-02-2007, 12:00 PM
KitCloudkicker KitCloudkicker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Nittiest LAG Ever
Posts: 2,366
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

i think raising the flop in hand 2 is foolish against a LAG. you're asking to get 3 bet with a wide range. if you think he's FOS then i would call down unless the board gets ugly.

also, what do you mean by "thinking LAGfish." often times i play what others consider to be a "thinking LAG" type game, particularly in position. these players usually arent fish but are rather quite skilled.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-02-2007, 12:51 PM
One Outer One Outer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: in a transitional period
Posts: 1,180
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

I hate the flop raise in hand 2. If he's really a LAG you're going to get three bet about, oh, every time. Just call the river.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-02-2007, 01:16 PM
fishyak fishyak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,079
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

A couple of interesting hands have generated a diversity of opinions OP.

My 2c:

Hand 1: Villian LIMPED PF AND didn't cap. No evidence of KK. flop c/r is most often associated with 2 pair. Simply put, will you be right about that 2/3's of the time, because if you are wrong 1 bet will cost you 2 unless you are willing to raise/fold. Further, from Villian's POV, the dog hand (K9) would put him ahead if he puts you on AK. I raise the river on hand 1.

Hand 2: Flop raise did give you a free card. H/U I'm OK with it but if you got 3 bet would you fold? On the river, Villian is re-testing after your free card. He has something. Live, I would raise this river as well.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-02-2007, 01:48 PM
gobbledygeek gobbledygeek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 546
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

Whoops, I misread hand 1; I didn't realize Villain simply limped and then coldcalled preflop.

In this case I guess villain could have a counterfieted two pair here as often as a set (K9 being most likely, K2 also possible; does villain play 92?). I think I would be tempted to raise river but moreso against an opponent I know would be weak enough not to 3bet their set; I'd hate to have to call a 3bet here.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-02-2007, 01:48 PM
TheCount212 TheCount212 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: the desert
Posts: 681
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Villian LIMPED PF AND didn't cap. No evidence of KK. flop c/r is most often associated with 2 pair. Simply put, will you be right about that 2/3's of the time, because if you are wrong 1 bet will cost you 2 unless you are willing to raise/fold. Further, from Villian's POV, the dog hand (K9) would put him ahead if he puts you on AK. I raise the river on hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems spewtastic or at least highly optimistic to me.. and is another example of "value bet syndrome" (VBS).

The OP has described the villain here as passive. He calls two cold PF and then caps the flop.. not something I think a passive would do with two pair on a board containing two spades. I think it is the villain, and not OP, who is value betting the turn and the river here. How do we not believe that a passive villain has a set once he goes berzerk on the flop?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-02-2007, 03:58 PM
fishyak fishyak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,079
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

[ QUOTE ]
The OP has described the villain here as passive. He calls two cold PF and then caps the flop. not something I think a passive would do with two pair on a board containing two spades. I think it is the villain, and not OP, who is value betting the turn and the river here. How do we not believe that a passive villain has a set once he goes berzerk on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Particularly live, I see people repeatedly OVERvaluing their opponents cards. 2) Sets remain relatively rare compared to flush draws that "accidentally" spike two pairs. Yes, the capped flop is a BIG concern. But I think the odds favor 2 pairs that just got counterfeited versus the set when it comes to betting on the river. If your read says set, then just call. If the OP says he read "SET," I'd just call. But reading sets live, how often are we wrong?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:32 PM
gobbledygeek gobbledygeek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 546
Default Re: 8/16 Live Thin Value Raises

[ QUOTE ]
2) Sets remain relatively rare compared to flush draws that "accidentally" spike two pairs. Yes, the capped flop is a BIG concern. But I think the odds favor 2 pairs that just got counterfeited versus the set when it comes to betting on the river. If your read says set, then just call. If the OP says he read "SET," I'd just call. But reading sets live, how often are we wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do we do if 3bet on the river by a passive who has check/called down top pair before? Can we possibly fold this pot (which I believe is > 20 BB)?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.