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  #1  
Old 10-21-2007, 09:32 PM
omaha hi lo king omaha hi lo king is offline
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Default Do you make this call?

Playing no limit poker 2/4. I am holding Ah 2H 4D QD. I have 200 in front of me bought in for 160. person gos all in and i am in the big blind. I figure the guy to have AA. I folded and then told everyone at the table what i had after i folded. They told me i am crazy not to make the call. Just to add the person who went all in said he had AA 7 19. suited in clubs. just wondering>??
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  #2  
Old 10-21-2007, 10:15 PM
jlocdog jlocdog is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

I think you should redo this post giving some pertinent information.

For instance:
-how many players
-stack size of opponent
-did he open push or was this a bet/3bet situation
-pertinent history

Also, it doesn't seem wise to show a big fold here and then debate it with the people who are trying to find your leaks and exploit them. Better off waiting till the end of the session and then asking close friends or this forum.
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  #3  
Old 10-21-2007, 10:40 PM
omaha hi lo king omaha hi lo king is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

close friends LOL??? He was in about 4th position i was in the big blind. stack size covered me. he just went all in. He had done it several times but had not gotten a call.
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  #4  
Old 10-21-2007, 11:30 PM
BlueBear BlueBear is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

Why do you tell them what you folded?

It invites people to play more trickily, it promotes poker strategy discussions, has the effect of tightening the table and makes loose players embarrassed to make loose calls. All undesirable.
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  #5  
Old 10-22-2007, 01:38 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

[ QUOTE ]
Just to add the person who went all in said he had AA 7 19. suited in clubs. just wondering>??

[/ QUOTE ]omaha hi lo king - Me too. I'm wondering too.

I'm wondering what is AA 7 19? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

If you have poker skill, you should probably prefer not to face this kind of pre-flop action, although your own hand,
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], would not be a bad hand with which to gamble, before the flop.

But although if you have skill, you'd rather not face this kind of wild pre-flop action, it may be the best option open to your less skilled opponent. He/she goes all in and you have to guess who has the better starting hand and (more importantly) who will end up having the better fit with the board on the river. And you have to do this with little or no information, before you can use any edge in understanding flops and before you can utilize any card-reading skill you may have.

The way casinos make their money is having a slight odds edge and grinding down gamblers over the long haul. For example, if you play craps, the casino has a small edge on each bet. Over the course of the evening, you may get lucky, but over the course of a lifetime playing craps in a casino, your luck will probably run out. Your best chance playing craps in a casino is probably to put all your money on the don't pass line in a one time bet. And then if you win, pick up and leave. (People don't do that because it's no fun).

But if you think about it, if you are a more skilled poker player than your opponent, that's your opponent's best move in a poker game too. Assuming you have more poker skill, you're going to grind your opponent down over the course of an evening of playing poker. So the best move a less skilled opponent can make against you is probably to take away your long term edge by shoving all-in before the flop.

And if you're going to play no-limit, then you have to be able to counter this kind of ploy. I think I'd call with your hand. I think that's the parry.

But I'd hate doing it. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

You can either play poker as a game of money played with cards or you can play poker as a game of cards where you keep track of who is winning with money.

I want to go through a hand with a logical thinking opponent, figure out what he has before he figures out what I have, and play so as to take advantage of hopefully what is my superior card placing ability. I want to go through a whole session like this, hopefully having just a small edge on each hand, losing some while winning others. That's playing poker as a game of cards, and playing cards is what is fun for me. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

But to each his own. You like no-limit. Fine. But then you have to expect wild all-in gambles and be willing to gamble too. Otherwise you're a target.

Just my opinion.

Buzz
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  #6  
Old 10-22-2007, 08:08 AM
franknagaijr franknagaijr is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

No. Clear fold if you have no deeper information on the raiser and you have just sat down.

But I don't hate a call here, if you've got a bunch of rebuys in your pocket, and you think it will make the game that much juicier.

Edit: If you are a tilt monkey, fold. If you think your opponent is a tilt monkey, call.
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  #7  
Old 10-22-2007, 10:00 AM
Lucky Clubs Lucky Clubs is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

For what it's worth, the NLO8 open shove is some variant of AA nearly every time for most players. Sometime in the last year or so, it seems that everyone has picked up the information that AAxx plays very well heads up, and they are willing to dance with variance because of (a) their hand's equity against any likely callers, (b) combined with fold equity.

One question to ask yourself is whether you stack off with your hand if your opponent were able to flip his hand up preflop. If he has exactly Ac As 7c 9d, then your hand is a very miniscule favorite. If he has Ac As 7c Td, then equity shifts in his favor. If we replace the 7c with ANY wheel card, then your opponent is at worst a 52% favorite (with the 2c), he has you 60/40.

Yours is a hand that I wouldn't feel bad about pushing preflop, but you are rarely more than a 51% favorite if you're calling (i.e., if he has Ac As Jc Td), and you are most often slightly behind.

It's really just a question of whether you're there to flip coins or play poker. The mere fact that you're posting here in an attempt to improve probably indicates that you will make better postflop decisions than the average opponent, and can pick a better spot.
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  #8  
Old 10-22-2007, 10:19 AM
Mendacious Mendacious is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

This is VERY opponent specific. But, against any of the short buy-in/ratholing types that are in the NL games right now, that like to shove with stuff like suited A3wx, this is a MUST call, or you have no business being at the table.

Especially with $200 in front of you. The only way you can refuse this profitably is if you are playing a big stack and trying to outplay other big stacks.
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2007, 11:02 AM
Lucky Clubs Lucky Clubs is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

[ QUOTE ]
This is VERY opponent specific. But, against any of the short buy-in/ratholing types that are in the NL games right now, that like to shove with stuff like suited A3wx, this is a MUST call, or you have no business being at the table.

Especially with $200 in front of you. The only way you can refuse this profitably is if you are playing a big stack and trying to outplay other big stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Opponent had him covered, so unless there is a specific read that this player likes to mix it up, his stack size minimizes the likelihood that he is playing a rathole-style and pushing any suited A3wx hands. I think this is almost always AAxx, and since so many players will do this with any two aces, I think it's almost impossible to determine the xx based on the push.

Even if we could narrow the xx down to a particular range, are we ever far enough ahead to feel confident that we have positive expectation?
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2007, 07:26 PM
jlocdog jlocdog is offline
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Default Re: Do you make this call?

[ QUOTE ]
close friends LOL??? He was in about 4th position i was in the big blind. stack size covered me. he just went all in. He had done it several times but had not gotten a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry for your lack of friends. But I will always stand by the claim that showing your opponents a big fold is not a good idea. It only gives them information about your calling/raising/folding range while giving you none in return.

And as Buzz has stated so well,

[ QUOTE ]
And if you're going to play no-limit, then you have to be able to counter this kind of ploy. I think I'd call with your hand. I think that's the parry.

But I'd hate doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You like no-limit. Fine. But then you have to expect wild all-in gambles and be willing to gamble too. Otherwise you're a target.

[/ QUOTE ]
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