Busto in less than a week -- is this to be expected?

[ispiked]

So I made my first deposit on FTP last Friday night. The first thing I played was a $2+.25 SnG and busted out of it when my straight got cracked by a flush.

I then went and played 10NL and won around $10 in about an hour (so at this point I had around $60). I came back after dinner and played till 8am the next morning, my bankroll fluctuating all the way down to $7, and back up to $36 when I finally quit. Then I played a bit on Saturday and managed to break even at around $35.

During this time my bonus was getting released in parts, so I was actually still losing. Long story short, I lost another $15 last night and then lost the final $20 this afternoon.

I have been "into" poker since around November, and started reading 2+2 at the beginning of January. I've played play money, but started hating that once I figured out it wasn't "real" poker. I've read GSIHE and like to think I have a small understanding of some elementary concepts of the game.

My question is: how or why did this happen? Looking back on it, I probably tilted off around $20 of this money and lost at least $16 of it in hands where I believe I had the best hand, but got sucked out on.

I have identified a few of my weaknesses; one of them is that I concentrate too much on my own hand (and not what the other person has) when I have a "good" hand. I'm really not sure what I am doing wrong, though. I've reviewed some of my hands and realized what I did wrong, or how I should have played them differently, but this didn't seem to make a difference.

Was I playing out of my bankroll? Should I focus on SnGs before I start playing in cash games? I was buying in for $4 at 10NL. Was this too little?

One last thing: is this to be expected? Do you have to lose some before you win some? Thanks for reading; I just had to vent.

[SplawnDarts]

My gut instinct is that your losses may be a combination of several things:

1) Variance - you may have run bad

2) Lack of information - GSIH is pretty weak sauce. Not sure how good it is for 10NL (I don't play online) but I kind of doubt it's really enough.

3) Lack of practice. You're working on this - I think you've identified several places where you're making mistakes. So fix 'em. I wouldn't be afrad to play free moeny even though it's not "real" - you can practice lots of real-world skills there.

4) Tilt

As far as playing outside your bankroll, that may be a meaningless concept for a $50 roll. But standard BR managment consensus is to play 1/20th of your roll as a buyin. Maybe more if you're basing your play on GSIH. So I think you might have been over what your "roll" could support.

Is this to be expected? With your background, probably. There are very few winning poker players against the rake, and the effort to become one can be substantial, so this is not at all unusual.

[www]

i asked a somewhat similar question a month or so ago when i was at the same place. not sure how to add link here so search this forum for the subject 'How much did you lose, before you won?'. won't help the holes but will give you other people's story if you want some light reading.

not sure if others will agree, but i thought the books that helped me most were harrington on holdem series. they focus on tournaments though so they may not apply well if you want to focus on ring games. volume 3 is one big test that you can score yourself to find your holes. not sure if/when second printing is... first has several typos, etc. there are threads here somewhere pointing them out. volume 1 is more introductory if you want to go over the basics (and some not so basics) again. volume 2 is bubble/final table situations when blinds are high compared to stacks.

[Cry Me A River]

You need to learn about BANROLL MANAGEMENT!!!

The reason you busted out is BANROLL MANAGEMENT!!!

If you're playing $2+.25 SNG's with a $50 bankroll, you're playing above your bankroll. 30-50 buyins is standard so you'd need $67.50 to $112.50 to play at this level.

If you're playing $10NL with a $50 roll, you're playing above your bankroll. Standard is 20 buy-ins so you would need $200 to play at this level.

If you are a begining player, then you want to give yourself an extra buffer to cushion your mistakes. That is, play with a BIGGER bankroll than standard.

Even good professional players adhere to bankroll management standards. This is because even good players have downswings.

If your bankroll is $50, you should be playing $1 SNG's. There is no limit small enough for you to "safely" play NL ring. However, you could play $5NL but be aware you still have a significant chance of busting out because you're playing short-rolled.

Do not buy-in short in cash games, drop down and learn to play poker properly.

[OziBattler]

ispiked, my advice would be to play at the lowest possible level you can, be it SNGs, limit or NL (ie play your game(s) of choice for lowest stake possible).

The reality is that you will have ALOT of learning to do. Some people 'pay' for their early learning by going busto one or more times. Other people get lucky initially but eventually lady luck turns against them. As you are relatively new I thoroughly recommend that you focus on tryin to learn to play well...dont worry about the money.....as you get better and make the right plays hopefully the money will take care of itself.

So you are taking the first baby sets into poker so take it easy, dont expect to win initially and have a realistic expectation about what you want to achieve.

As a mental excerise when you have a decision to make at the table ask yourself WHY you want to make a certain move. The more you think about why you made a certain play the quicker your will learn.

oh and a great way to learn is to get involved in your strategy forum of choice....maybe post a few hands and reply to more. Sure you may well screw up but you will probably learn more from your mistakes so embrace others constructive criticism of your play and learn from it.

goodluck

Z

[Poker Plan]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to learn about BANROLL MANAGEMENT!!!

The reason you busted out is BANROLL MANAGEMENT!!!



[/ QUOTE ]


As others have said, you probably went busto from a combination of all the standard possible reasons.

It's probably going to take a LOT of very hard work and heartache to get to a point where you are confident you are a consistently winning player.

Start SMALL and play WITHIN an adequate bankroll- this way, you are giving yourself a fighting chance.

Good luck

[swingdoc]

Short answer - Yes.

Long answer - You're new. You've been playing for 3 months and *eek!* you've been using play money. Excellent choice moving from play money to real money as it would take some sick discipline to actually improve much using play money. Do NOT go back to play money. I don't care if you're playing 0.01/0.02 NL, any real money games are going to help you more than play money games.

Even the poker geniuses and savants of the world spent years honing their skills to become truly successful players. Poker is so deceptively simple that we all think we're gonna be great right from the beginning. Not true. Just like any other endeavor, it takes time, practice and work.

Okay, so that was the harsh reality check. Now for the good news. You certainly can become a winning poker player. Using these forums is certainly a good start. Your post mentions playing till 8am - this is not the best thing ever. Discipline is the number one downfall of every donk I've seen. As a new player, you need discipline in every facet of your game. How many hours you play, how much you're willing to lose in a single session, what mental/emotional states you're willing to play under, etc. These are AT LEAST as important as what starting hands you're willing to play. Good luck out there.

[Jerboa]

Wow...ok. From what I read in your post, it was 100% expected.

It sounds like you are getting your first real lessons in the game, and like everyone, paying for them. Play money doesn't do it. You can read books, but at some point you have to apply what's there in a table setting. Remember, lessons at the table aren't free.

Bankroll...(this is my opinion and certainly not 2p2 accepted wisdom [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] )first you need to figure out what your total bankroll really is. Real bankroll management is only vitally important when losing your nut puts you out of the game completely, or will cause you to lose your sole income. Then the 300BB, or 50 buy-ins becomes vital. When you are playing this low, chances are you are willing/able to reload relatively quickly. This means that you can play a bit higher than otherwise. At $50, I would be comfortable with .25-.50 limit, or 5NL. If $50 really is your total bankroll, then drop down to the lowest you can. .05-.1 limit is a good starting point. And stay at that level until you build up enough for 300BB at the next level. For no limit, I don't think there really is a limit low enough.

No Limit -- I don't like the $4 buyin at a 10NL table. You should either decide on a full buyin, or decide to play short stack and buyin for the minimum and look for a spot to double up. Short stack isn't the end of the world..it's just a different way of approaching the game and can keep you out of trouble since you are just looking for places to push preflop. Many people don't like this style, but when you are sure that you aren't the best player at the table, it can equalize your chances.

Discipline -- you sound totally undisciplined here. Before you sit down again, come up with a plan. Don't just hop in to whatever seems good at the time.
Before your next deposit, decide on:

Length of time to play
What game you'll focus on (stick to one until you are beating it)
What limit is right for your bankroll
When you'll leave a bad game. (If it's too tough for you, recognize it and get up. Don't drop $20 chasing that first $2 loss)

Don'ts
Don't chase losses! Don't chase losses! Don't chase losses!
Don't stick around a bad game. ("If in the first 30 minutes, you can't spot the fish...it's you")
Don't hop around games. Learn one well first, then build on that knowledge.
Last...Don't chase losses! Don't chase losses! Don't chase losses!

Finally, begin structured learning:

read everything in the sticky at the top of this board, and at the top of the limit and no limit micro boards.

post hands in the appropriate board. The comments you'll get are priceless

read other hand postings, and "grunch" them (don't read the comments before you figure out what you think)

Best of luck!

[ispiked]

Thanks a bunch for your comments, guys -- lots of useful information.

[kyzerjose]

Let's cut to it.
It makes absolutely no difference how big your BR is or how you manage it, if your game is fundamentally flawed.
You can have a gazillion buyins or BB (NL or LHE) and still go bust if you don't take the time to learn how to play or more importantly, why you play a certain way in a certain situation.
Read "The Theory of Poker".
Take your pick of NL books. Most of the basics are pretty much the same. Gordon's "Little Green Poker Book" is an easy read.
Lee Jones, "Winning Low Limit Holdem" is a standard limit book. The Sklansky/Miller/Malmuth, "Small Stakes Holdem" is the low stakes limit book but it's way over your head for now.
I'd recommend you play limit for now. Start at the micros until you get comfortable with how the game is played.
Good luck. It's not too late to change your mind.