Leading With Top Set Into Small Pot & Coordinated Board 60 BBs Deep

[destroBU]

I'm aware that it's b&m, and I've played plenty of b&m in vegas, tulsa, and chicago, and I've never seen a game that bizzare. The fact that it's fixed buy doesn't make it more reasonable to call off a 3x potsized bet on a 1 card draw.

If this is standard in LA, then I guess I need to move to LA because that's just absurd. Why are you even posting this? You should be at that game RIGHT NOW.

[RiverHebrew2]

i would c/r big if theis is a loose fishy B&M game b/c many call w/ just a6 or somethin... some even shove 9t or 78 or 68 and whatnot to the c/r and just wunna gambool... if they flopped straight so wut u got outs just find a way to have the fish get the money into the pot without even realizing they called off everything weak esp if they have... 50 BB's or so

[Rick Nebiolo]

My thinking may have been twisted by results. I led at this pot for $70, got called in one spot by T9 and got stacked.

Later I thought with this "drawy" board, I should have led out for a lot more, perhaps $100 to $150. Then my opponent still might call, but he's paying an awful high price (given my near certain turn push). OTOH, I might be losing action when I look at my typical field of opponent's calling range, which gets pretty narrow with such a big overbet. I still want action from bottom two pair, hands such as 97 (pair, inside draw), and medium overpairs such as 99. And I want players with a worse made hand to try to make the play of calling on the flop and trying to bet/raise me off my hand on the turn if it comes scary, something they can't do if I bet big on the flop (making me potstuck no matter how scary the board is by the river}.

One thing I want to add is that in LA at this level, meta game doesn't matter as much as it might elsewhere or to another player. Because there are so many games and all the card clubs are almost equally close I can move my play around a lot. This means only a few opponents see me enough to realize much more than the fact I don't play a lot of hands. And if they don't think I won't overbet a big draw out of the blinds, then they are simply wrong. That said, my overbet is usually going to be in the 140% of the pot range, as are most of my bets with made hands (edit to add "on such a drawy board".

~ Rick

PA The six came on the turn, perhaps I could have lost less by checking and calling the turn and probably the river. In LA players with position will routinely bet worse hands than a set when the board appears to be scary to the out of position lead bettor, especially when he is perceived as tight.

[yvesaint]

rick just bet the max u think will get called end of story

[FireStorm]

1) 63xBB deep, it's almost a lock that you have to get it all in here regardless unless the turn is a 6 and there's significant action. No matter what line you take, all the chips go in the middle here by the turn assuming it's a blank and the pot has any money in it. Thus, almost no line where you end up shoving could be bad, with this stack size.

2) I wouldn't bet out $150 or $100 because these are huge overbets in relation to the pot and these will kill any possible action you may get from A8s, or pair+gutshot like 9c7c etc. Pot's too small to fire these amounts, so take them out as a line.

3) $40 seems OK as a lead out here, standard close to pot sized bet. I like this option the most, better than $70.

4) CR is also an OK line, this type of flop in a limped pot will usually wind up getting bet.

[FireStorm]

After rereading, yes, bet what you think you can get called, although I still don't really like betting ONE FIFTY into $45. He does make a good point that in live underground B+M's you find plenty of people willing to call it off getting 1.5-1 with one card OESD's. It's not like online, pot sized bets mean nothing to gambling maniacs. Same where I live as well, people are more than willing to call above and beyond PSB's on random, non nut, fairly transparent draws.

[BobboFitos]

every bet size is "good".

I think you didnt mention the best bet size... not sure why you want to overbet this pot, the play is to underbet it. bigtime.

a checkraise is alright, but it's a limped pot, and the play you say isnt hyped up or even moderately aggressive, so this flop checked around isnt fantastic.. SOME money must go in.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
rick just bet the max u think will get called end of story

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that was seventy or so I guess. Sometimes you're just going to get stacked, on average a slight overbet into a drawy board will get the most money. Of course you need to be willing to overbet on your bluffs, semi-bluffs, and bets with more marginal hands.

The day before I was playing in a deeper buy game (60 to 100 BB) with a $5 BB and was up to about 330 BB. I'm not going to get stacked so easy in that game unless I run into set over set.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like a c/r given your image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, if someone bets and I checkraise I think I give away way too much strength, causing them to fold or slow down on the turn unless they really do beat me.

OTOH, if it gets checked through I'm now playing small ball with a hand I want to go out of the park with. I have to live with the fact that about 20% of the time it's me that goes out of the park. And 63 BBs isn't really all that much to lose.


[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead for 40 or 50, making a 2x overbet sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether I'm bluffing, semi-bluffing, or betting a strong draw or made hand I tend to make slight over bets on extremely "drawy" flops (when I chose to bet). Flops that have a "lot of air" (e.g., Q 7-2) I'll usually bet about 65% of the pot on the flop, whether or not I have a strong, weak or nothing hand that warrants a bluff.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
1) 63xBB deep, it's almost a lock that you have to get it all in here regardless unless the turn is a 6 and there's significant action. No matter what line you take, all the chips go in the middle here by the turn assuming it's a blank and the pot has any money in it. Thus, almost no line where you end up shoving could be bad, with this stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

After betting $70 on the flop and getting called (pot now $185, I have $550 left) the turn comes a six. I chose to bet $100 rather than check. Opponent made it $200. With $350 left had I called I decided to push right there, figuring to get action form smaller sets and two pair. Had I just called, I have to call the river no matter what with my stack size. Plus he checks behind most of his slightly weaker hands (I think).



[ QUOTE ]
2) I wouldn't bet out $150 or $100 because these are huge overbets in relation to the pot and these will kill any possible action you may get from A8s, or pair+gutshot like 9c7c etc. Pot's too small to fire these amounts, so take them out as a line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. On the ride home I started to focus too much on how I could have won that hand, but realized I was playing results hence this post. I want action from the many worse hands I'll run into, making a good draw pay the wrong price isn't the only priority.



[ QUOTE ]
3) $40 seems OK as a lead out here, standard close to pot sized bet. I like this option the most, better than $70.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of board (in LA B&M) will get action with moderate overbets. I suppose this isn't so true online, but I don't play online except for SNGs so I really don't know.



[ QUOTE ]
4) CR is also an OK line, this type of flop in a limped pot will usually wind up getting bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. The problem with a late bet and my checkraise is I'm showing a lot more strength than I would with a small overbet, and perhaps this isn't such a good idea on average.

If it got checked through and the six came (as it did), I could play real small ball and check call all the way unless the board pairs the river (probably costs me about $200 to $250). Or I could make a $35 or so bet (which often takes down the pot when nobody has a straight or picks up a flush draw) get raised to about $100, simply call, then probably have to call about $200 or so on the river. With either line I make far less when I fill up.

In general I think checking is better for boards most of the field is likely to have missed.

~ Rick