The ol' hidden high denomination chip trick

[TStoneMBD]

stuff like this drives me nuts. whats worse is that i often try to do something about it by asking the guy nicely to put his high denomination chip in the front where its supposed to be to avoid having a situation like this happen at the table. sometimes ill get a comment like "who made you table captain?" same thing happens when i see people buyin to a game for more than the max and point it out to the dealer. i get a "mind your business" remark. sorry for keeping the games legitimate and protecting the fish.

[AKQJ10]

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The problem I have with putting them on top is I never know which stack I'll use to bet with...so I don't want my high chips on the top.

Oh well, I guess I'm overruled and the bottom is considered dirty...good to know

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It's not that having them on the bottom is dirty; it's that doing it in such a way to obscure the size of your bet or raise is dirty.

If you keep your primary playing chips (e.g. $5 at most small stakes NL) in stacks of 20, which is pretty standard, you're probably going to have another stack of odd chips, say 1s, 25s, and 100s. If you prefer to keep a stack of 6 quarters and 14 nickels (in FRONT) or whatever, fine -- if your opponent needs a precise count they can ask for it. Just make sure, when you push all-in, that you separate them out by denom so that your opponent sees the amount clearly.

You don't have to advertise your high-denom chips, but you do have to keep them in plain view, not hidden. That's all. Since you're not shooting angles, there shouldn't be a problem.

[ziggie]

At the WSOP last year they were constantly reminding players to keep high denomination chips in plain view. They do not consider the bottom of a stack plain view.

[Dominic]

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As a bettor at no limit poker you have an obligation to protect your hand until it is clear your opponant understands the size of your wager. In the example given above if he actual bet is $144, but the opponant says "call" and puts out $44 it is clear he does not understand the amount of the bet. If the first player shows his hand at teh first mention of "call" he runs the risk of the player misunderstanding the amount of the bet. Also chips that are intentional hidden can be ruled to not be in play. There are people that beleive no chip larger than the min buy-in should be permitted on the table, but I believe that not allowing players to hide their chips is enough.

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Alas, the caller pushed no chips. Angle shooter said "all-in" and set out two nice, neat stacks. Other guy pondered just a moment and said "I call" and then both flipped over their cards to show 2-pair vs straight. Dealer spreads out the 8 chips and says "$143" and the caller says "WHAT??? No way, man" and spends eons arguing with the dealer who repeats "too bad, you said call--you should have asked if you weren't sure". Finally the poor victim asks for the floor. I was surprised the floor didn't ask more questions. Dealer explained what happened, but with no emphasis at all on the nearly invisible black chip neatly tucked away at the bottom of the blue stack (which may have something to do with the victim being a tourist and the angle shooter being a known-by-name-by-all-the-employees regular). But he did lay the chips out showing the stack of red and the stack of blue/black, and the victim did say the black was hidden at the bottom. Floor then instantly ruled "you said call, you owe him $143" and walked off.

The problem with "not allowing players to hide their chips" is there seems to rarely be a penalty for doing so. I see similar misunderstandings where the intent of the bettor isn't so obviously devious pretty regularly. I've never seen one where the victim didn't end up paying the full price. The only thing that made the last two incidents I've witnessed odd is that it was blatantly intentional.

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there is no victim here. The player who lost SHOULD'VE clarified how much he needed to call before doing anything.

What idiot doesn't make sure how much a bet is before calling? Whoever does do this, I gurantee, only does it once.

[bav]

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What idiot doesn't make sure how much a bet is before calling? Whoever does do this, I gurantee, only does it once.

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Yes, he's a victim of an angle shooter. Hiding your chips ain't kosher.

Here you are playing what seems to be a happy, friendly NL1/2 game. The guy one away from you says "all-in" and puts out two nice, neat stacks. Both are obviously 4 chips high. One seems to have all red. The other seems to have all blue. You can't see there's a black at the bottom of the blues without either touching his chips, or putting your head fairly close to the stack, or asking. One doesn't have to be an idiot to fall for this. We're not playing NL10/25 here.

I've been surprised to find out after I was well into a hand that my opponent had a couple blacks hidden, and I found myself wishing I hadn't played quite the way I did. I don't recall ever saying "call" to an all-in and being surprised by what I hadda cough up, but I'm not so silly as to think it couldn't happen to me, though. I could see being tired or distracted and being surprised by such a thing.

Let's think back a couple weeks to a hand involving a 2+2er. $100 pot at the river, his opponent says "jacks". 2+2er flashes a ten that made a pair of tens and mucks. Guy who said "jacks" tosses his cards to the dealer face down. 2+2er says "well can I at least see the jacks?" The cards are turned over and there are no jacks there. What kinda IDIOT falls for that? Well... all of us, eventually. We just aren't always on constant guard against such things.

[slik]

only a hustling cheat would be so harsh. to punish an "idiot" for makign a mistake unintentionally, but letting the real culprit go unpunished is just encouraging cheats and foul play. maybe if there was zero tolerance for angleshots, these hustlers would stop doing them. casinos be damned -- if this happened in my home game and i was convinced it was an angle shoot, not even the $44 gets called, and the "idiot" gets his money back.

[PGarlic]

I remember this one dude pulled this trick in a tourney. He open raised with AA by putting out a small stack of T25 chips. On the bottom of this stack lay a lonely T1000 chip. The bettor acted like he did it on accident.. Calls the floor over.. Floor rules the bet stands.. Some dude with TT moves all in and gets called, Oopsy Double up!

[Basilvdk]

Now I'm curious. If I'm at the 1-2, I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style]. It's never been a problem that I know of, and I always announce the amount when I bet all-in so people know what I have. I just want to make sure I haven't been hiding chips without realizing it.

[3rdCheckRaise]

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If you keep your primary playing chips (e.g. $5 at most small stakes NL) in stacks of 20, which is pretty standard, you're probably going to have another stack of odd chips, say 1s, 25s, and 100s

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In the 2-5 game this SAT I had 2 stacks of red (20 each) and 7-8 (3 black, 2 green and couple of whites) chips right besides them in plain view. I raised to 150 using my red chips and some dude pushed all in. After losing the hand he claimed that when i pushed 150 in front of my cards using reds i obstracted his view of my black chips...floor had none of that. Also in the hand played in one of now closed NY clubs i saw an idiot pushing his stack of about 5k as a bluff thinking that the other guy had about 500 in front of him. Well that 500 was sitting on top of 5k of cash...according to the rule of that room cash played... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[smoore]

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Now I'm curious. If I'm at the 1-2, I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style]. It's never been a problem that I know of, and I always announce the amount when I bet all-in so people know what I have. I just want to make sure I haven't been hiding chips without realizing it.

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It's called "barber poling" (striped stacks). Some places have explicit rules against it. If the dealer never says anything, I would assume you are OK. It certainly doesn't seem like you're trying to hide them to me.