The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains

[Rick Nebiolo]

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HP Management will not allow two different drop schedules to happen. Not sure if it was a legal reason, or the management wanted indentical drops between live and electronic.

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As pointed out in the main eTable thread HP's drop on the regular $40 buy 1/2 blind NL game is the highest in town. That's one reason they rarely get more than six games (usually two to four) while other clubs get far more.

~ Rick

[po-Jay-to]

1. Imagine a card room where no one, not even once, has acted out of turn, made an incorrect size bet, or had their monster hand killed due to a misdeal or errant mucked cards.

2. Imagine a card room where you spend 50% more time playing poker instead of watching the dealer shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle and deal out 20 cards.

3. Imagine every single pot is pushed to the appropriate player and split pots and side pots were divided as quickly as a single pot.

Imagine all that while you receive $0.10/hand in comps (about $5/hr @ 50 hands/hr). Perhaps the mystery is not that players are discouraged (not necessarily accurate above) from complaining but that players (albeit a small number) have found a game that provides what no other B&M room has been able to provide and consequently, there is little to complain about.

I provide this post as an alternative perspective for consideration. As always, feel free to debate it.

Rick, et. al.-
I really do appreciate the candid discussion about ePoker on this thread. Even when it is critical of the room and practices, it helps me see it from a player's perspective. Although I don't think our VIP program is clandestine in nature or worthy of conspiracy theory status, I am able to see the perception from a player's POV. I'll take this perspective into consideration as we continue to evolve the ePoker Room.

Jay Siegel
ePoker Room Mgr.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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1. Imagine a card room where no one, not even once, has acted out of turn, made an incorrect size bet, or had their monster hand killed due to a misdeal or errant mucked cards.

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All the above are reasons I like ePoker and hope it catches on at least a bit.



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2. Imagine a card room where you spend 50% more time playing poker instead of watching the dealer shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle and deal out 20 cards.

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It might even be faster than 50% more. Readers should note that all players get at least 10 cents per hand (see Jay's comment below) paid next session. Before the session after playing a prior 4.5 hour session I noticed that $22 extra dollars was in my account. That means I played 220 hands in four hours (accounting for two fifteen minute breaks). That's about 55 hands per hour; compare this to about 30 hands per hour in the small NL games on the main floor.

Of course this is one reason why all but completely drop-oblivious players wonder why the per hand drop is the same as it is on the main floor.



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3. Imagine every single pot is pushed to the appropriate player and split pots and side pots were divided as quickly as a single pot.

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I don't think anyone is arguing that this isn't a great thing about ePoker.



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Imagine all that while you receive $0.10/hand in comps (about $5/hr @ 50 hands/hr). Perhaps the mystery is not that players are discouraged (not necessarily accurate above) from complaining but that players (albeit a small number) have found a game that provides what no other B&M room has been able to provide and consequently, there is little to complain about.

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Regarding "ten cent per hand comps":

I've gotten these comps as noted above. And I must admit that on a couple occasions they drew me in; before recent plays I estimated that I had $10 to $30 in my account (Note to readers: Players see this money next time they play even if they cashed out the account at the end of their previous session) so after a long session on the crowded and noisy main floor I would come by the eRoom to relax and play small. So after re-depositing $300 or $500 (and looking at a balance of lets say $320 or $520) I'd play. Comps work to an extent.

A problem with a per hand comp/rebate (or per hand pay for VIP Players/quasi-props) is that it rewards tight play as much as it does loose play. This sort of promotion tends to attract a base of tight players. It was certainly that way at the Bike with their "Rewards Program" of $5 per hour in top section (note that this part of the program has been dropped in the Bike's top section).

It might take me a few minutes to find the link but Randy Refeld (forum moderator) explained to me a few days back how in some cases he is paid as an online prop only when he sees the flop. This obviously rewards loose play more than tight play and is something to think about.

All this said, I have to admit many of your VIP Players are very loose and action orientated, but this only compares to the 3/5 and 5/10 blind NL games I normally play.


Regarding "lack of complaints":

It is very likely that the VIP Players don't complain without having to be told "not to complain" because it is just plain obvious that they shouldn't. But I know more that a few from the old days; from "off-duty" conversations some agree that the bizarre practices would generate howls of protest from regular players on the main floor.

These bizarre practices include:

- Splitting up the single full game with no board (or one player on the board) by removing almost half the VIP Players and starting another game of the same size and limit built around perhaps one non-VIP Player. If something like this was done on the main floor the regular customers would go ballistic.

- Almost never combining let's say three 5 to 7-handed games into two nearly full games at a time where you really have little expectation of getting more players (e.g., 11:00 pm on a Wednesday night). I've never been in a low limit room were where the customers didn't scream to combine games when there and nearby games of the same type and structure were short. If the house didn't combine games the customers would simply leave, often resulting in one game rather than two.

- A player puts his name on the board with one or two full games going. He is the only name on the board. He has indicated he is willing to wait. He goes to the nearby restroom and immediately upon returning the floor tells him they will start another game as they have "five or so players" who want to play. He sees no new names on the board but he plays anyway. Suddenly he is in a very short game with very tight players and the horrendous LA drop. A few minutes later seats open up in the nearly full and action orientated game(s) he would have liked to play. But he can't move, he is in the short game. So he leaves, perhaps vowing never to return. (Note: Something like this or much worse has happened to me three times and I've observed similar situations from my seat on other occasions. It also has happened with more than one floor so I assume they are under pressure from above to increase game counts).



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I provide this post as an alternative perspective for consideration. As always, feel free to debate it.

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Thanks Jay for coming in. This is a tough board but the rewards are great. You will get honest feedback here, no sycophants allowed (I think [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])



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Rick, et. al.-
I really do appreciate the candid discussion about ePoker on this thread. Even when it is critical of the room and practices, it helps me see it from a player's perspective.

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One thing you need to keep in mind is that players who post here aren't typical, they are more serious, more knowledgeable (or want to become so), and usually tougher players. But many of us think about what it would take to build a good card room or a good game. For example, a per hand rebate is seemingly better for a tight player like me, but I also realize the importance of rewarding loose play (whether it be props or customers) in order to create action.

I'd love to see a rebate/comp based on seeing flops or continuing on after the flop, even though I know I would almost never be induced to get "my fair share" of the rebate/comps in the long run. I'm not an unthinking nit! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]



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Although I don't think our VIP program is clandestine in nature or worthy of conspiracy theory status, I am able to see the perception from a player's POV. I'll take this perspective into consideration as we continue to evolve the ePoker Room.
Jay Siegel
ePoker Room Mgr.

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I didn't mean to imply that the VIP program is clandestine (and realize that the VIP Players may not have to be told "not to complain"). In fact the VIP Program is (or was) advertised in front of the room. I wrote the OP in the style I did because I'm a mediocre writer who wants to improve and sometimes I just feel like trying something different after not having time to post for a while.

That said, the bizarre practices mentioned above make something about the room appear to be "off", and I think this is apparent not only to the experienced player like me (who also has worked in card rooms) but to the action players ("donks" to those of you under 30) too. You need a base of action players to grow, although by my standards many of your VIP Players are great action.

Anyway, I'll probably be playing the main floor in Hollywood Park today. I'll stop by first to see if you are around and might play late tonight in the eRoom.

Regards,

Rick

[Tuff_Fish]

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Anyway, I'll probably be playing the main floor in Hollywood Park today. I'll stop by first to see if you are around and might play late tonight in the eRoom.

Regards,

Rick

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Why do you play in the regular games as your "main" game as opposed to the e-poker games?

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Why do you play in the regular games as your "main" game as opposed to the e-poker games?

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At Hollywood Park I play the 3/5 blind $200 fixed buy and 5/10 blind $400 fixed buy NL games (and occasionally the 5/10 unrestricted buy NL game). I also like the 15/20, 20/40 limit holdem games along with the 20/40 OE or 20/40 stud/8.

I also tend to play just about all the LA Clubs since every one of them is about a 25 to 35 minute drive and I like variety.

~ Rick

[Tuff_Fish]

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Why do you play in the regular games as your "main" game as opposed to the e-poker games?

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At Hollywood Park I play the 3/5 blind $200 fixed buy and 5/10 blind $400 fixed buy NL games (and occasionally the 5/10 unrestricted buy NL game). I also like the 15/20, 20/40 limit holdem games along with the 20/40 OE or 20/40 stud/8.

I also tend to play just about all the LA Clubs since every one of them is about a 25 to 35 minute drive and I like variety.

~ Rick

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OK, I am guessing the answer as to why you don't play only e-poker games is that they don't offer your preferred limits and types of games. Perhaps I missed it, but are the e-poker games only low limit/low buyin?

On another point about short games. Online I play 6 max exclusively. So I am not as concerned when the live table gets short. But all the San Diego area casinos, along with Oceans Eleven Card Room, lower the rake/drop when the game gets short. It seems that this is not true at HP. Am I correct, and if so, are they not allowed to?

Thanks,

Tony

[sdp]

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But all the San Diego area casinos, along with Oceans Eleven Card Room, lower the rake/drop when the game gets short. It seems that this is not true at HP. Am I correct, and if so, are they not allowed to?

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For the live dealer games at HP, this is a floor decision based on customer request rather than an automatic reduction when it gets short handed.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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OK, I am guessing the answer as to why you don't play only e-poker games is that they don't offer your preferred limits and types of games. Perhaps I missed it, but are the e-poker games only low limit/low buyin?

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Right now the only game they seem to get going on a regular basis is the 1/2 50-100 spread buy NL. I'm mostly playing ePoker to 1) check it out since I've worked in card clubs and may work again and 2) to relax after a session in he noisy crowded main room since the eRoom is comfortable and quiet.

I've also done pretty well. I think players (at least the one's I've played) loosen up when they only have to push a touch screen button to bet or raise.



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On another point about short games. Online I play 6 max exclusively. So I am not as concerned when the live table gets short. But all the San Diego area casinos, along with Oceans Eleven Card Room, lower the rake/drop when the game gets short. It seems that this is not true at HP. Am I correct, and if so, are they not allowed to?

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They lower the drop but unlike Oceans 11 they drop $1 on no flop. As an aside it was originally $2! (one dollar for jackpot and one dollar for "adjusted/modified" drop) as mentioned in the original post about ePoker from a couple months ago. This makes 5-handed 1/2 NL games terrible unless some donk(s) are there to spew chips. I'll check how exactly hoe much is dropped short handed tonight if I can.

Keep in mind that in low level B&M a $2 plus jackpot drop on a five-handed game takes a lot more in proportion out of a pot than a $4 plus jackpot drop on a nine-handed game relative to the typical pot. And once again note that the drop is taken in full on any flop so it is absolutely brutal in a tight game.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But all the San Diego area casinos, along with Oceans Eleven Card Room, lower the rake/drop when the game gets short. It seems that this is not true at HP. Am I correct, and if so, are they not allowed to?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the live dealer games at HP, this is a floor decision based on customer request rather than an automatic reduction when it gets short handed.

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All games I've seen have tags for reducing drop short handed. In my experience within LA floorman's discretion has been curbed the last few years. My guess is further reductions only occur late at night on graveyard shifts when games would otherwise break.

~ Rick