Missed freeroll deal of the century

[bav]

Harrah's did their regular freeroll tourney today. 41 players, top two each got a $10,000 WSOP main event seat, $2500ish for 3rd, dribbling down to like $220 for 10th, and $150 for the next 10, $100 for the next 10, $50 for the next 10.

I'm out about 25th but I stick around. They're down to the final four and 2 of them say they really want the seats and two of them say they really want cash but they can't figure out a deal. They knock one out.

Now two of them really want a seat and one of them really wants the cash. The lady who wants the cash doesn't live in Vegas and just doesn't want to have to come back next summer to play the main event (and she may realize how dead her money would be in it). So she tells them "if you each give me $250, I'll take 3rd and you can have the $10,000 seats". So she's asking for the $2500 3rd place money plus $250 from each.

Neither guy has $250 in cash! One guy claims to have $90 and the other like $190. Lady says "fine--we play". And she ends up winning a seat when one of the guys busts.

For want of having $250 in their pockets one of these guys went from winning a $10,000 seat to winning $2500ish.

If I'd been thinking as I heard her make the deal offer to the two guys I woulda jumped up and offered to pay the lady $500 outta my own pocket in exchange for 10% of each of the guys. RatsRats. Figure I missed out on a great deal here, too.

[Hornacek]

Good God either:

a) She was an enormous fish and the other two gave her no respect
b) The other two are complete morons

I'm leaning towards b) right now.

[surfinillini]

WTF...have these freerollers ever heard of an ATM...

I'd be like "lady, ATM is down there, I'll get $250 for ya, and another $250 just to make sure"

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

[sternroolz]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF...have these freerollers ever heard of an ATM...

I'd be like "lady, ATM is down there, I'll get $250 for ya, and another $250 just to make sure"

right

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't this freerolls reserved for players who meet minimum qualifications? I know a co worker who regularly spends hours at $1 video poker(ie $5 a pull) and she gets sent these. I can't imagine these douchebags are entirely busto.

[Dozer64]

Statement #1
Might have been a good time to buy a seat for a discount rate (if you can do that).

Question #1
How is the $10K seat taxed? Can Harrah's "sell" the seat to her for $1 and she gets out of the taxes?

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
woulda jumped up and offered to pay the lady $500 outta my own pocket in exchange for 10% of each of the guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait. You wanted 10% of whatever these guys got in the main-event? I know you get theoretical value out of that but it doesn't seem that incredible to me.

If they're so stupid that they can't figure out how to go to an ATM to accept this deal then I suspect that getting a 10% stake of these 2 guys at half-price could almost be -EV.

That's really weird that they wouldn't lock-in their seats for such a cheap price.
And if the chip-stacks were relatively equal then it's also pretty weird that she would offer to take only $500 cash to end it.


I have extremely limited live-tourney experience but some of the awful deals I have seen and heard about it, including this situation, lead me to believe that even with typically high-ish juice and lousy structures that those things can still be REALLY +EV.


One tourney I played, the final 4 players agreed to an even split for $2100 each...even though 1 player had 60% of the total chips and the other 3 guys each had 15% or less.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I have extremely limited live-tourney experience but some of the awful deals I have seen and heard about it, including this situation, lead me to believe that even with typically high-ish juice and lousy structures that those things can still be REALLY +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe it. The players in these things are SO BAD, you can't believe it. Anyone who's studied TPFAP and HOH has a massive EV edge.

[bav]

This freeroll is the standard thing they do every 2 months for folks who've put in 80 hours on the cash games or won two regular tournaments (the qualification by winning two tournaments is no longer an option--gotta be 80 hours next time). Harrah's, Paris, and Rio all do variations of these.

There was lots of discussion about the $10,000 seats. I find it totally appalling that these things are non-transferable and cannot be sold. It's claimed these are use-it-or-lose-it. Given that Harrah's is raking $1/pot to pay for these, I'm not 100% convinced giving that money back to the players with such insane strings attached is even legal. An interesting question for the Gaming Commission... The casino is not allowed to rake more than $4 or 10% by regulation, so the extra dollar they take MUST be returned to the players. Is it really returning it if you're not actually giving the money back, and are instead giving them what is effectively merchandise?

Anyway... the tax implications were discussed at length, too. Nobody claimed to know the answer. I just don't see the IRS saying they're fine with you failing to pay tax on a $10K WSOP seat until after you've cashed at the ME. It makes perfect sense and is completely logical and would greatly benefit the player, so I'm sure they'd disallow it and force you to declare $10K in gambling profit this year and deduct $10K next year. But IANACPA.

As the bustouts were playing cash games and the tourney was still going we chatted about what kinda deal would be fair. I was thinking if it was a 3-way split, the 2-seat winners should cough up $2K each so the cash-taker got $6500. The effective take of the top two would then be $8000, but hamstrung by having to use it to enter the ME. So the $1500 difference felt about right. When I heard the lady tell the boys "give me $250 each" and saw the guys fumbling for cash, I just walked away figuring they'd come borrow the money from someone, or hit the ATM, or do WHATEVER it took to make the deal happen. Next thing I look back and they're playing again and in like 60seconds it's over. Wacky.

[tourney guy]

Good post here. Let's clarify some of the issues.

1) Can the licensed gaming propertry offer merchandise in lieu of cash??

A: I think they can, so long as they can prove that the goods are in FMV for what they collected. The simpler thing to watch is how thew rules for the freeroll are written. The property has to submit them to GCB, get approval, and then follow them to the letter. I can only assume GCB would grant approval prior to allowing merchandise in lieu of cash or cash-based products like buy-ins.

2)Why can't seats be transferred?

A: It is called 'truth in advertising'. If Bellagio says it has a WPT event where the winner gains admission into the WPT championship, the winner HAS to go to the WPT championship, period.

Once GCB accepts the rules to your event, you had better follow them....without exception.

Now, why doesn't HET, MGM-Mirage, etc., allow a player to take a cash option? Good question, and I would guess that there are tax, branding, and leagl issues that apply here.

3) Is a satellite taxable?

A: The research indicates no. IRS rules, as you know, are unclear about poker (A fact that will change by the end of 2006). However, if I play in a freeroll, it is being funded, in part (and theoretically, equally) by my money. If the rules stipulate that I MUST take my seat in a larger tournament, and then I lose, the question is then, "what did I actually lose.

I have done a few of these type of returns in my life. If I win a super-satellite, for example, for $225, and win my seat into a 10K poker tournament. I bust out of the 10K tournament on the first hand.....what did I lose or win??

I tell people to document everything and say that the cash-basis of that tournament is $225, and that is my loss.

My rationale is simple.....if my buddy plays in the same satellite, gets into the 10K event and placed 29 for a 50K payday, I can assure you the IRS is going to say he bought in $225, and not 10K, thus increasing his net win.

Keep the receipt for $225, and you will be fine.

The "G" has never called me back to say I was wrong.

4) As to deals, I don't do deals, and have never contemplated them.