5CD - Break up the House...

[ZenMusician]

Situation: You are dealt a pat full hand.

Fact: You want to increase overall EV as much as possible.

Problem: Which situation may arise where breaking the pat FH
and drawing to trips will increase your EV?

Hint: "Never!" is not the answer...

-ZEN

[ohnonotthat]

If your only opponent or opponents have drawn three and you know from past experience that this person or persons is apt to get out of hand with the after the draw betting if he/she/they make(s) trips, it is almost always correct to toss your pair and draw 2 when YOUR trips are Aces and it's true more often than not when your trips are Kings.

This play works in either limit or P-L/N-L; it also applies to quads (As or Ks) IF you think that for whatever reason you are more likely to get action after the draw if you draw two (to trips) as opposed to one (to quads).

I just woke and am groggy; there may be other situations where breaking a pat full house is correct.

Obviously you'd break if you knew you needed quads or better (or better refers to draw with the joker/bug) in order to win - though short of having an opponent show you his hand I'm not sure how you'd ever know that.

What do I win ? ? ?

Hint to YOU: Cash is always a good gift. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[stripsqueez]

it would be hard to define the positions where this would be a good plan - i would never break a pat full if it meant any significant compromise on my chances of winning so it would only be if i could keep AAA or maybe KKK and i would have to have position

i've played a heap of limit draw and i've done it once so its not the most crucial of spots to worry about in my view

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[ohnonotthat]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never break a pat full if it meant any significant compromise on my chances of winning.


I've played a heap of limit draw and i've done it once so its not the most crucial of spots to worry about in my view



[/ QUOTE ]

The double bet after the draw often (see: USUALLY) compensates for your lowered chance of winning the pot making plays of this nature almost always worthy of consideration.

You'll win a few less pots but those you win will be much larger.

In holdem this fact is less meaningful (win % vs. size of the pots you DO win) though it does enter in a fair amount; in stud it rarely is part of the decision - stud pots are usually big enough without trickery.

You are, of course , correct that the situation the OP describes will not occur often; a once-a-week player could easily go a lifetime without it popping up in LIMIT; P-L, however, demands plays like this be made all the time.

Happy holidays. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Notorious G.O.B.]

I thought about doing this the other day, with aces full heads up against the big blind. This was a european site with no cap on betting, though, so I was probably better off staying pat. He probably would've paid off with two pair or better, anyway, since I was the small blind.

[mpanzer]

Caveat: No bad beat posts are allowed after you break your house up and someone else catches a straight or flush drawing 2 or 3 cards...

[xOber]

It is definately mathematically the correct move to break up the house if you have position and know ppl are drawing 3, you will win more in the long run. I never do it out of position, and never ever against ppl who draw 1. I will never do it with low trips, or trips lower than the pair I put someone on. I pat bluff so much(and represent the pat bluff w AAxx)that it isnt even much +EV for me, but If I am playing more conservative because of the table it becomes more worth it.

If you knew you needed quads you would fold, and you would never know you needed quads.

It basically never applies to quads, drawing 2 doesnt get you any more action, usually it gets you less. Although I can imagine it being a possibility against a few players, its not something I would do. I mean you would very much like someone to hit a FH or flush or something and cap w you post draw. I know its 99 to 1 or something on a draw 3, but they will hit trips and put you on a set(draw 1) or high 2 pair, not a flush/str8 draw generally. So I just dont see the advantage of it.

[Tilt]

2 situations I can think of:

1. You have aces full, with position. No more than 2 callers to your preflop raise, they both draw 2 or 3 cards. As they are known to overplay their hands, you drop a card to get some postdraw action.

2. You raise preflop, betting gets capped, everyone is still in the hand! You have 2's full of 3's. You have position. Everyone stands pat. Based on like 200,000 hands against these players, you think your hand is not good enough, so you draw for quads.

[ZenMusician]

Great discussion everyone!

I hope this helps you think a little more
creatively and "out of the box".

-ZEN

[losingflush]

Such a situation is analyzed by Mason Malmuth in Winning Concepts In Draw And Lowball.