JJ in sb versus BelowAbove

[whynot?]

Gang

this is a hand discussed on another forum where most folks say fold pre. I just dont see this as right and wanted the collective wisdom of 2+2

heres the deal - BA is bb. all stacks are 4500-5000. blinds are 15/30. We're unknown to BA but we obviously know his rep

Cutoff opens for 90. SB is hero here and calls for 90 with jj(mistake imo unless youre playing to trap a known lag). BA rasies to 420.

So most responders said fold to the raise, a few say flat and play post. I think the right move is to make it 1200 - you gain a bit of respect from BA and you are certainly ahead of his range. For the record, I'd call the four bet shove as well.

Am i crazy (so i know the answer is yes, but referring to this hand)?

[FGators]

Given the nature of MTTs at this level and the fact that tons of people open light in the HJ,CO,button,etc I'm definitely popping preflop to about t300ish.

To fold to this raise, IMO, is ridiculous.

The only point I could see for it is that Below doesn't know the 2 players in the hand and is therefore less likely to squeeze fearing that he can't squeeze unknowns.

Still I don't think you can think like that.

I'm shoving here and picking up the money in the pot, which I expect to take it down a lot.

[ZJ123]

shoving or raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand. I think folding is ok because were OOP against a crazy man, and calling is prolly ok as well.

[GreatKerblini]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm shoving here and picking up the money in the pot, which I expect to take it down a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrific. So u want to fold worse hands and get stacked the rest of the time?

I call and play poker.

[FGators]

I guess shoving sucks but the flat call preflop is really bad so I wouldn't have to be put in this spot.

So we are basically check/folding any flop that has an ace or king in it?

[whynot?]

guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important. folding sucks from taht angle, flat and playing aggressive works, but repoppping i think gets you more credit with the probably best hand

[registrar]

I like a raise. This is BA. He can easily shove a worse hand here and limp four-betting is going to piss most people off enough to shove TT and KJs etc.

[ZJ123]

[ QUOTE ]
guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important. folding sucks from taht angle, flat and playing aggressive works, but repoppping i think gets you more credit with the probably best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

metagame is overrated, esp when it means being knocked out of this tourney and not being in a single spot against below for 100 more tourneys, etc.
Raising sucks hardcore.

[MINETZ]

u can call soley to play when you have sets, he cant really outplay you when u have a set.

Hes also a spewmonkey postflop, so i dont mind checking to him on 3 streets and extracting from whatever he felt like squeezing with.

[whynot?]

"metagame is overrated, esp when it means being knocked out of this tourney and not being in a single spot against below for 100 more tourneys, etc.
Raising sucks hardcore"

so ok - so you flat this - whats your plan? what do you do on a 963 rb flop?