|
|
#11
09-05-2006, 11:57 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
[ QUOTE ]
So it's only a semi-bluff if you're behind? [/ QUOTE ]Correct. [ QUOTE ] I know this is symantics of labeling a "bet" but I've NEVER heard of value betting a non-made hand. [/ QUOTE ]Usually drawing hands are only ever going to be marginally ahead on the flop, and hardly ever is a drawing hand going to be ahead on the turn. So unless you are planning on getting it all in on the flop, you have to be careful about "value betting" a draw because you might not get to see the river. However, if I think I'm ahead in a draw on the flop and my opponent indicates a willingness to get it all in, it's good to know when you're ahead of villan's range, even if you only have a draw. And value betting the flop even when you're not sure you can call the turn still has value in making a big pot for a big potential hand, which your opponent will be tied to and will likely pay off if you hit. Slightly OT: I do remember a hand in 7 card stud where I had a killer draw on 4th street (3 card straight, 4 card flush, and an ace), so I capped it. I managed to hit my straight on the river and he went absolutely ballistic: "You capped it with NOTHING!" Guess that I backdoored it even made it worse, never mind my other draws. Ah well, gotta love poker. 
|
|
#13
09-05-2006, 12:00 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
You labeled a post flop drawing hand bet as a value bet and with that I disagee. It's a semi-bluff as the op said and as defined in HOH II p26 and ToP p91.
As for raising AK pre-flop, it can't be a semi-bluff since that's a post-flop move.
|
|
#14
09-05-2006, 12:02 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
[ QUOTE ]
You labeled a post flop drawing hand bet as a value bet and with that I disagee. It's a semi-bluff as the op said and as defined in HOH II p26 and ToP p91. As for raising AK pre-flop, it can't be a semi-bluff since that's a post-flop move. [/ QUOTE ] If a draw comes in 60% of the time, then it is a value bet no matter whether you are currently behind. Look at it the other way...say you check and villain pushes giving you 2:1 you probably have to call. SO, push it in the first place, he might fold and you win anyway.
|
|
#15
09-05-2006, 12:09 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
[ QUOTE ]
You labeled a post flop drawing hand bet as a value bet [/ QUOTE ]Not ANY draw- just a hand that is stastically favored to win. [ QUOTE ] It's a semi-bluff as the op said and as defined in HOH II p26 and ToP p91. [/ QUOTE ]I don't have ToP with me right now, but re-reading HoH II and I don't see anything about drawing when you are stastically ahead. The discussion is about being most likely behind but pushing anyway because you have FE and that makes the move profitable.
|
|
#16
09-05-2006, 12:09 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
[ QUOTE ]
You labeled a post flop drawing hand bet as a value bet and with that I disagee. It's a semi-bluff as the op said and as defined in HOH II p26 and ToP p91. As for raising AK pre-flop, it can't be a semi-bluff since that's a post-flop move. [/ QUOTE ] I call a bet a bluff if my hand is highly unlikely to win a showdown, a semi-bluff if my hand has outs to improve to a winner but needs FE to make the bet +EV and a value bet if my hand figures to be a favorite to win the pot at the showdown.
|
|
#17
09-05-2006, 12:13 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You labeled a post flop drawing hand bet as a value bet and with that I disagee. It's a semi-bluff as the op said and as defined in HOH II p26 and ToP p91. As for raising AK pre-flop, it can't be a semi-bluff since that's a post-flop move. [/ QUOTE ] I call a bet a bluff if my hand is highly unlikely to win a showdown, a semi-bluff if my hand has outs to improve to a winner but needs FE to make the bet +EV and a value bet if my hand figures to be a favorite to win the pot at the showdown. [/ QUOTE ] Then we're kosher, it's not as bad as canadian bacon and ham [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
|
|
#18
09-05-2006, 12:18 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How is betting a draw, a value bet [/ QUOTE ]When you are the favorite to win the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Really? So it's only a semi-bluff if you're behind? I know this is symantics of labeling a "bet" but I've NEVER heard of value betting a non-made hand. [/ QUOTE ] An example. We hold 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and villain has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Flop is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] We are 56% to win the hand. We are favourite with K high V AA. FWIW, even if the flop is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] we are still only a 42% dog even though we only have ace high and villain has a set of aces with only two cards to fall. There was a bitter debate about this a few months back, what constitutes the 'better hand'.
|
|
#19
09-05-2006, 12:48 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
I haven't yet seen a book that's properly addressed super-draws. (>11 outs) In my mind it makes much more sense to think of these as very strong made hands on the flop. Never fold, don't call unless it puts you all-in. Raise and keep raising, like you'd do with a set.
|
|
#20
09-05-2006, 12:57 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: when to use the semi-bluff
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't yet seen a book that's properly addressed super-draws. (>11 outs) In my mind it makes much more sense to think of these as very strong made hands on the flop. Never fold, don't call unless it puts you all-in. Raise and keep raising, like you'd do with a set. [/ QUOTE ] Phil Gordon's Little Green Book talks about these.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
