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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:16 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Maybe a little LC, I don't know, but this play pissed me off and it feels like the guys I am in the hand with are cooperating. What is happening here?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0,50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (9.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (11.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (13.50 BB - $81)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $81 | Rake $3

Note: this site shuffles the hole cards.

Seat 7: [Qh 7d 4s 4h 2h 6d 3c] - HI: a pair of Fours; LO: 7,6,4,3,2

</font>
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:50 PM
electrical electrical is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Cooperative betting strategy in a three way pot is an element of good poker, not collusion. Even so, this was just a normal c/r on Five to eliminate a better high hand. Normal.
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:34 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:07 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board?

[/ QUOTE ]The point is that he's mostly in pretty good shape if you fold, but in terrible shape no matter what if you stick around.

It's a little doubtful that he has enough to isolate, but it's far better than calling in pretty much any scenario.

And no, you can't really tell that he's doing this sort of play since he would play two pair or trips the same way. In which case you're completely destroyed.

Thinking about it, with your dead outs and the huge downside of him having a better high hand folding seems best. Possibly you're better off 3-betting, but the pot seems to small to warrant getting free-rolled for 2-3 streets.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:06 PM
Phat Mack Phat Mack is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?


[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. But if he has you on three low cards and two bricks, this is his chance to promote his 44 before you have a chance to pair you ace or brick.

As electrical says, all hi-lo games have this tactical element of ad-hoc implied collusion to build pots and/or to promote hands. These partnerships change from hand to hand. Nothing is more annoying than to be in a hi-lo pot when your implied partner doesn't understand his role. (Studying these partnerships and failed partnerships is highly profitable. Learn to see them coming.)

He made a good play.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:56 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Why do you guys think I don't understand the point of cooperative betting? I'm just saying I have a hard time finding this play more profitable for him than a fold. I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:33 PM
PokrLikeItsProse PokrLikeItsProse is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

I have a hard time understanding why you seem so incredulous about players making what appear to you to be aggressive, non-good plays. If you've never been raised off the best hand before, then you're probably a calling station.
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  #8  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:37 PM
Phat Mack Phat Mack is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how he reduced two profitabilities. It's a zero sum game, isn't it?
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:40 AM
Micturition Man Micturition Man is offline
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Posts: 805
Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?

[/ QUOTE ]


You're exaggerating how good a board of 235 rainbow on 5th is, especially with low limit players who play any razz hand on 3rd.

Add to that that a lot of people raise most of their low draws on 4th and the 44 guy could be a favorite over 235's distribution here.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:54 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
Cooperative betting strategy in a three way pot is an element of good poker, not collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you need to look up the definition of "collusion", because that is it.

Thing is, especially in split-pot games, the best non-cooperative strategies are going to be equivivalent to the collusive strategies.

So raising here is fine, *if* it's done simply trying to max individual expectation without any agreement. If on the other hand they signaled, or had some sort of agreement about how to play these hands, that would be cheating.

[ QUOTE ]
Even so, this was just a normal c/r on Five to eliminate a better high hand. Normal.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed.
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