Calldowns vs lagtard

[NinaWilliams]

Villain is a 50/30/2.5 lagtard.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, Button calls, SB folds, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.25BB

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9.25BB

[jba]

they look ok. argument could be made for a turn check in both though. especially #1

[Sheakspeer]

Hand 1 - This seems like leader's KQ hand from a few days ago, in the sense that if we check the turn we don't necessarily mind free cards or villan betting, plus we have outs so maybe c/c down.

Hand 2 - Seems standard. I really don't think I'd dream of a turn value check in that spot.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
they look ok. argument could be made for a turn check in both though. especially #1

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Both hands look like standard turn checks, although alot depends on how retarded/aggressive this guy is which is something stats cant necessarily tell us. This is one of those times where if Nina tells me betting the turn is the right play vs this guy I will beleive him and say no more. If Nina is unsure what the right play is on the turn, then I think he should check in both hands.

[timoK]

hand 1:
pfr 30% normaly = Ax and any two broadway cards.
based on this villain might hold any sort of suited stuff.

but I dont put people with that kind of stats on a range because their play ist just too wired most of the time.

I def bet the turn and call down hand 1 because
- I see value in this
- I have outs if behind
- I shot the 50% vpip &amp; 2.5 aggression guy that pure aggression wont make me fold
- you can get a good read at SD

hand two is more tricky as villain (assuming the same as in hand 1) might limp with crazy stuff like Q9 Q8 J9 J8 T9 T8.
I call this down for the same reasons as hand 1 (expect you might not have much equity in doing so but the read at SD my help you a lot in the future)

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
Both hands look like standard turn checks

[/ QUOTE ]

Check turn more vs LAGs. In particular OOP. I think a case can be made for betting the 99 hand.


And BTW (and sorry for being patronizing). Are you sure he is a retard? Because if you by default asumme that a 50/30 type is a retard postflop you will be surprised.

I am apologizing in advance for being a patronizing jerk. Just wanted to point out that 50/30 guys will sometimes play good poker postflop. In particular at higher stakes.

[timoK]

oink,
can you give an example for a hand a 50/30 guy limp OTB?


http://www.imgshare.de/upload/image_1189629441.JPG
41 vpip
25 pfr

so I somewhat know about laggish play and the only hands i would limp OTB are connects (&lt;T) or suited hands (maybe up to two-gappers) vs loose passiv (with other words average) villains.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
oink,
can you give an example for a hand a 50/30 guy limp OTB?


[/ QUOTE ]

I missed his open limp. That would make it much more likely that he is a bad player.

Just wanted to push the point that 50/30 guys arent necessarily complete idiots. For some reason you see plenty of them at higher stakes.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

"Check turn more vs LAGs. In particular OOP. I think a case can be made for betting the 99 hand."

I agree that a case can be made for betting the turn with 99. One thing I would like to point out is that if we bet the turn with 99, we are implying that we are also betting a blank river for value. If the hero does not believe his hand is worth a value bet on the river, then checking the turn vs this opponent is probably the best play. Conversely, whenever we have a marginal hand thats still strong enough to value bet the river, we usually should not be checking the turn in position even if we are afraid of facing a check/raise becuz we will be giving up too much value those times we do have the best hand.

Either way, I agree the 99 hand is close. And in hand 1, im not betting unless Im convinced that this opponent is raising the turn &amp; betting the river with a wide enough range to make betting better than checking. 95% of the time checking the turn will be the correct play in hand one. It takes a special opponent to deviate from this line.


"And BTW (and sorry for being patronizing). Are you sure he is a retard?"

The title of this thread implies that this guy does not play well postflop. So thats what Im working with. I understand that all kinds of players can play well postflop, however even from a pure statistical perspective we can still draw a a very accurate conclusion that this guy doesnt play well postflop by looking at his very high AF in conjunction with his preflop stats, assuming we have enough hands on the villain. So the stats + the thread title makes me pretty sure the villain doesnt know what he's doing.


"Because if you by default asumme that a 50/30 type is a retard postflop you will be surprised."

Nothing in limit holdem surprises me any more. Ive seen every imaginable sequence of play, and I have a photographic memory.

"I am apologizing in advance for being a patronizing jerk."

You dont ever have to apologize to me. Even if it's obvious to me what youre saying is true, and it is, why would I be insulted cuz you didnt know I knew that? Plus, there are people out there who dont know that 50/30s can play well postflop, and your post can help them.

"Just wanted to point out that 50/30 guys will sometimes play good poker postflop. In particular at higher stakes."

From my own observations, it seems to me that once you reach even a low level like 10-20, most of the 50/30's play decently postflop.

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]

From my own observations, it seems to me that once you reach even a low level like 10-20, most of the 50/30's play decently postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt any of them make money unless they have perfect table selection though.