My river play bothers me

OrigamiSensei · #1 11-05-2007, 11:29 AM

I generally consider my river play to be a very weak part of my game. When to make a value bet vs. check-calling especially seems to be a situation that eludes me.

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: OrigamiSensei is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 raises, 3 folds, OrigamiSensei calls, Villain calls in the BB.
MP2 is rockish, a 12/6 type which means his raise is probably not a steal - hence the simple call to defend as opposed to the instant 3-bet that would occur with many other players. Villain is a classic LP-P at 36/3/.8. I don't have a ton of hands on either but enough to believe the reads are pretty solid.

Flop: (6 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
OrigamiSensei checks, Villain bets, MP2 calls, OrigamiSensei raises, Villain calls, MP2 folds.
Good flop for me. There is a question in my mind whether leading here would be better than lying doggo and going for the check-raise and I wouldn't mind some discussion on that subject.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
OrigamiSensei bets, Villain calls.
Obvious. A turn raise stop and go by villain will cause me to reconsider but for now I stay aggressive.

River: (7.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
OrigamiSensei???

Here's where I have a problem. Naturally I believe I have my opponent outkicked or he was calling down with some middle pair plus a possible straight draw but now the board is very dangerous. I beat AJ/AT/A9/A2 while I lose to A8/A7/A6/A5/A4/A3.

So is check-call the ticket here?

Mitke · #2 11-05-2007, 12:17 PM

* G *

I suck at river too but here goes:

The flop is interesting. We could have a wa/wb situation with the rock-MP2 given his very tight preflop range. The board isn't particularly drawy but BB still could have a SD or small pair that we need extract value from or protect against.

Donking might allow MP2 to isolate us from the LPP-villain with a hand that dominates us or easily fold a hand that he'd c-bet with but not call a donk (maybe as wide as KK-88).

If MP2 3-bets our c/r we must be really worried of being dominated and might even fold at some point so c/r might give us more information than him raising our donk.

I think c/r flop is best.

Turn is standard.

River is a b/f (following the Clarkmeister Theorem?). A villain as passive as he seems will not raise this river with anything that you beat. You still have to extract the value from worse Aces.

BadBigBabar · #3 11-05-2007, 12:21 PM

easy river bet

and no it's nothing like a clarkmeister, mitke

bozlax · #4 11-05-2007, 12:31 PM

How deep is your read on MP2? Even a 6 PFR is going to pop this with AJ/AT/KQ/KJ/88-99/etc...you need to 3bang this preflop.

On the flop, I'd have bet out. A rock is going to check behind you with 99-KK on an ace-high flop, but might peel. When you got lucky and BB bet it for you, then your c/r was goot.

Turn standard.

River is an easy bet; only check against an aggro vill that will bet if you "show weakness". If Villan is truly passive post, then you can fold to a raise, otherwise just call. Remember, he can see the straight, too.

ckj · #5 11-05-2007, 12:32 PM

First off, 3-bet preflop. That's 100% standard. Otherwise, well played. You should bet fold there methinks if he's passive, but check/call if he's somewhat agressive.

Do you have any reads on the villain? Is he the type to play some weak Ax hand, or is it more probable he has an AT or AJ type hand?

Mitke · #6 11-05-2007, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and no it's nothing like a clarkmeister, mitke

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for noting my question and answering it. I'd be also grateful if you could discuss why this river isn't a clarkmeister situation?

I only came across this concept in this thread by reading Harv72b's response and I've been looking for spots to apply it. This looked like one although it isn't a 4-flush.

We have a scary river.
We have a passive and straight-forward opponent (I assume so).
We could c/c or lead.

BadBigBabar · #7 11-05-2007, 01:01 PM

clarkmeister is, if memory serves, me, when the board brings something scary (usually a 4flush) and you have been c/cing down and you bet out, out of tempo, instead. it's somewhat of a semi-bluff.

here, we've been leading the whole way so the situation is different.

checkcalling here is bad because he's going to check behind with his worse hands. the board - while superficially scary - doesn't hit villain's range at all except maybe for a chasing 88.

bet and get called by worse aces and high pps imo.

Bona · #8 11-05-2007, 01:04 PM

A couple of experienced posters have indicated this is an easy bet. I'd like them to explain it further. It doesn't appear to me that villain can call a bet with anything we beat except Ax with x= 2,9,T or J only. On the other hand he will call with any hand that beats us and will raise if he holds an 8. So:

many times he simply folds his hand here. Sometimes he calls and wins. (Yes he sees the straight but can he fold anything that beats us?) Sometimes he raises and we have to fold.

It doesn't seem like a clear cut bet to me. As a matter of fact I don't think it makes the 55% threshhold for a bet but we have enough equity for a call if we check.

bozlax · #9 11-05-2007, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
clarkmeister is, if memory serves, me, when the board brings something scary (usually a 4flush) and you have been c/cing down and you bet out, out of tempo, instead. it's somewhat of a semi-bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not part of it, Babar. The requirement is that you have a hand that you would call a river bet with; action on previous streets is immaterial.

BadBigBabar · #10 11-05-2007, 01:09 PM

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...te_id/1#import

i found this old thread that mentions being oop as part of it. i guess the fact that there's still confusion about it is heartening.