Struggling with C-betting in the nanos

[OrigamiSensei]

I have been struggling with a problem while grinding my way through the lowest of the low in nano-stakes (.01/.02, .05/.10). I have a very nice hand, raise and miss the flop. I know it is often framed in the context of playing overcards and that's fine. There's the excellent loyalguard compilation, a section in SSHE and numerous other resources on playing overcards. However, I also find myself trying to think about it in terms of players and reads. Conventional wisdom says you miss the flop and have a small number of opponents (1 or 2, maybe 3) that the c-bet is often default. In tighter games I accept this and have seen its commensurately greater success in my small dabbles at .25/.50 and .50/1. But in the low nanos I find myself more and more reluctant. The reasons are twofold:

1) When you have people who will limp practically any two cards you are far more likely to have an opponent who connected with the garbage flop.
2) When you have people who do nothing but call, call, call, you aren't generally folding them with a c-bet.

This leaves me in a struggle to maintain agressiveness and apply pressure, but often wilting and playing more fit-or-check in these scenarios. It's easy to value bet relentlessly when I actually hit something but I'd like to learn how to win during stretches like the last couple of weeks where the cards have been quite uncooperative.

I have no idea if I'm making any sense whatsoever here but hopefully this will provide some grist for useful discussion.

[dboy23]

In these looser games you have to rely more on getting massively paid off when you do hit the flop. That said, a c-bet on the flop with AK isn't bad, but chances are if they call they have sometime, and aren't folding. This forces you to make a hand. Unless you think they can't beat A-high, you will have to slow down.

These games are the most profitable but your variance will be higher.

Keep in mind it is as hard for them to hit flops as you. So do bet those overpairs/second pair/middle pairs for value.

As for winning without the cards cooperating. It's not going to happen. You will just have to rely on your fair share of good hands to pay for the other times. And they will.

[Didelo]

In general, I'd be extremely cautious about c-betting into three or more players. If you've missed, chances are one of the three behind you has connected and you're behind.

This comes up in smaller limits more often because you so frequently have fields of 4 or more to the flop.

However, it does more frequently give you odds to draw to that top pair...

[ottsville]

When the cards are uncooperative, your goal should be to loose the least possible. Long runs of bad cards come. That's poker.

How many times do you c-bet AK on a 26T flop get two callers then an ace comes on the turn and they both call down and turn over JT and 6x?

BTW - All the answers you seek are in your post....

[Chris Daddy Cool]

keep in mind it is perfectly fine to check even if you have been the aggressor throughout the hand.

[KingOtter]

You also forgot the tendency of anyone in late position betting when checked to... so if you check the flop, or the turn, no matter what it seems you get bet at.

This tends to happen more after a bad run of cards than after a good run, however. You showdown some damn good cards, it seems the table starts doing that horrible thing, 'respecting' you.

I hope that made sense, I've had a few beers.

KO

[BTR_Rounder]

If you feel you have to call a bet if it's 1 back to you, then bet it yourself. For example the pot is large because you built a pot, you flopped 2 overs + some bd draws.

Also, don't be afraid to check, but balance it out with a check raise every now and then. More observant opponents will give you free cards more often fearing the check raise.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
...your goal should be to loose the least possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is, generally speaking, a terrible way to play poker, cooperative cards or not. Playing scared will lose you way more bets in the long run than spewing a few c-bets around.

OP, stop worrying about reads on the other players at nanos...it's hard to get a read on a players when they themselves likely don't have a read on themselves. As you correctly pointed out, your FE is generally like a good refrigerator (Sub-Zero) so bet your hands on their own merits, not because you pfr'd.

[GoadToad]

My understanding is that c-bets are profitable because of the combination of fold equity vs. poor hands (but which will beat you if you don't improve), finding really strong hands early, free turn card possibility, and building the pot against medium hands for those cases when you do improve.

In the nanos the poor made hands & crap draws won't fold. Ever. This is not a bad thing -- you make much more from poor hands that won't fold when you hit the flop than you do from c-betting missed flops.

The really strong hands will call until the river half the time -- they saw it on tv. This is also not a bad thing overall -- you'll lose less money when your strong hands face stronger hands. (although it sucks emotionally to get sandbagged on the river by donkeys whose hand you were beting for them)

You'll get a free card...and so will 4 other players all on longshot draws. You will build the pot for when you hit -- but your made hands will lose much more often to rivered crap.

With all it's advantages lessened or negated I don't think c-betting missed flops is profitable in those games, in fact I'm pretty sure it's quite negative.

Ordinarily, a man with a gun easily stands down four men with knives. But a man with a gun facing four men with knives with NO FEAR should run. Unless he's really really good with a gun.

[OrigamiSensei]

Actually I have a ton of fold equity - at least in one strange fashion. When I finally do catch a hand and bet it the calling stations suddenly go el foldo. It reflects a problem I'm seeming to have lately, that the fish aren't completely unaware. They have figured out I play solid starting hands and raises. When a garbage flop hits they know I missed, when a good one hits and I smack it they dive out of the way an unacceptable percentage of the time when they will call, call, call against other players in similar situations. This means long periods of slow bleeding, winning an occasional small pot, having lots of draws missing (chased with proper pot odds, of course) and then only rarely winning a big one when the draw hits and they finally pay off. It's high variance and it can get grueling after a while.

Boz, as for reads I worry about them even at this level because I'm trying to learn this game - actually re-learn as I've played for twenty-five years. Thus I'm paying my dues by grinding my way and my bankroll up through the nanos and micros. Otherwise I'd have simply rolled myself with 500BBs for 2/4 and started there. In any case I'm trying to "play right" and study so I can become at least slightly competent. I have no delusions of ever becoming a shark but I aspire at the very least to become a "nimble fish" so I don't get eaten.