2 Pair OOP MW

[Trix]

3/6, 23/14 decent winning reg(800 stack) opens utg opens for 18, MP(108) and CO(1000) calls, I(667) call 15 in SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], BB calls.

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 90ish pot

I check, BB check, pfr bets 70, shortstack push for 90, CO folds, I ?

[James00]

I call here sneaky sneaky

[Trix]

I was hoping people would explain the reasons behind their actions. Thanks for your oppinion anyway though.

[stigmata]

I normally just play these sort of hands fast. I don't think the shortstack changes anything compared to it being HU, as it is barely a raise anyhow.

The reason I like to play them fast is because the turn brings so many cards that either make our decision much harder and/or freeze up any potential action. It's much simpler to play this way, and thus you are less likely to make mistakes on scary turns.

This doesn't neccessarily mean that it's the most profitable way - I would like to know how a sneaky sneak plays the turn when it is a K/Q/J/diamond or blank.

Also, I don't like preflop: You are against a good player and a shortstack, so unless CO is particularly bad it's going to be difficult to get much value from the hand.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
This doesn't neccessarily mean that it's the most profitable way - I would like to know how a sneaky sneak plays the turn when it is a K/Q/J/diamond or blank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren´t we supposed to seek the most EV optimal play even though it may be harder to play...

I check any turn if I call the flop.

Btw, I think it does matter that there is a guy allin, since the pfr should know that I´m alot less likely to shove a draw with no fold equity..

[Hattifnatt]

I raise it up to 250 or so and call a shove and prepare to push about any turn. Calling seems very bad creating a dry side pot OOP on this board.

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]


Aren´t we supposed to seek the most EV optimal play even though it may be harder to play...

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends how good of a player you are - Simpler lines may be better for some of us than others!

Slowplaying and checking any turn can be a problem because it lets the other player control the pot size very easily. Also, when you envisage the different scenarious, we seem to be making lots of mistakes from a FTOP point of view. In contrast, fastplaying is certainly profitable and it doesn't really matter how well you play. On the other hand, if you understand your opponent and read hands well, slowplaying is more likely to be correct because you end up trickier situations.

Yes, fair point about the shortstack.

I honestly don't know what the best play is here, and am interested in other opinions. But fastplaying is simple and profitable.

[Jdanz]

260 in, a shove is an over-bet a raise is a bluff I think.

your hand is quite strong, but I don't see what raising accomplishes, villain will call with aq, sets and flush draws, fold worse hands.

I don't like calling, but I like raising less, and your hand is too good to fold.

I think betting a non king non diamond turn is good if you think villain won't shove a flush draw, which is probably given the protected pot.

So i call and bet/fold turn. If i don't trust myself to fold the turn I don't bet out.

[Proofrock]

Meh, I don't really like this spot because none of your options are great.

(1) Reraise. BB and UTG folds most holdings except AA,QQ,AQ,55 and Adxd (and MAYBE JdTd, KdJd,KdTd), and they push most of those. BB probably doesn't have AA/QQ/AQ/AdKd, but these are all well within UTG's range. Since you're in bad shape vs. that range (i think -- I haven't pokerstoved it), you'd have to fold. So by raising you're pretty much just folding out worse hands and getting pushed on by better ones or hands that are coinflips w/you.

Since UTG led the 5-way flop, I imagine his hand is stronger than usual, so re-raising probably isn't great.

On the other hand, you deny UTG proper odds to hit any of his outs on the turn if he's behind.

(2) Call. BB may call, UTG always calls, but now it's a protected pot. You're in about the same situation as you were on the flop, except BB is more likely to be involved as well. If BB or UTG had a draw and didn't hit it on the turn his pot equity goes way down, and also he has very little reason to semibluff a dry sidepot in position.

I'm honestly not sure what the best line on the turn is if you call the flop, though, especially since you're OOP. It depends a lot on UTG's flop leading range and what BB does. I would be most inclined to c/f a diamond or a queen, and either c/f or b/f a blank.

(3) Fold. Folding feels really wrong here, and I think option (1) is better if you think UTG will lead the flop with a wide enough range. If UTG will only lead this flop with a tight range of hands that mostly have you crushed, then I guess folding here is an option but I think it's more the exception than the rule.

FWIW, I'd probably choose (2) > (1) >> (3), but (1) and (2) are pretty close for me. I'm interested in hearing more feedback on this.