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| View Poll Results: who likes | |||
| check/call |
   
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1 | 8.33% |
| bet/call |
  
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5 | 41.67% |
| bet/3b |
  
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5 | 41.67% |
| check/raise |
  
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1 | 8.33% |
| bet/fold (NITS) |
  
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0 | 0% |
| Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#601
08-31-2007, 10:17 AM
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Re: STTF SNG->cash thread
[ QUOTE ]
Karp, I don't like preflop but the rest is fine imo. Not 3 betting pre also hurts your fe posflop here bc it is going to be hard for villain to give you credit for much here other than maybe 66. You have an equity edge both against buttons opening range and his calling range, protect that equity edge. [/ QUOTE ] I just had an a-ha (not the Norwegian band) moment, ty! What's your line in these spots with hands that are ahead of his raising range but dont play good against his calling range? Could you give your ranges on calling and 3-betting here (no meta game factors involved)? 
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#602
08-31-2007, 10:38 AM
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Re: STTF SNG->cash thread
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Karp, I don't like preflop but the rest is fine imo. Not 3 betting pre also hurts your fe posflop here bc it is going to be hard for villain to give you credit for much here other than maybe 66. You have an equity edge both against buttons opening range and his calling range, protect that equity edge. [/ QUOTE ] I just had an a-ha (not the Norwegian band) moment, ty! What's your line in these spots with hands that are ahead of his raising range but dont play good against his calling range? Could you give your ranges on calling and 3-betting here (no meta game factors involved)? [/ QUOTE ] This is all very player dependant but a hand being ahead of villain raising range but behind his calling range isn't necessarily a reason not to 3 bet. This is a ridiculous example but say you have a player who will open with atc on the button but will only continue after facing a 3 bet with aces. Obviously you can profitably 3 bet a number of hands that are ahead of villain's opening range but behind his calling range just by the mere fact that he's folding close to 100% of the time. A lot also depends on how comfortable you are playing head up and oop against a certain villain because against some villains 3 betting may be profitable, but not the most profitable way to play a given hand. This could depend on things such as the liklihood of villain playing back at you if you donk the flop, how often villain c bets, how often villain will fold to a check raise, is villain stationy and not able to fold marginal hands postflop, etc. Generally speaking though, I am very rarely cc a button raise out of the blinds, but this just may be a leak on my part in an inability to play very well oop.
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#603
08-31-2007, 12:58 PM
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Re: STTF SNG->cash thread
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a typical regular TAG. Please make corrections to my line of thinking. Seat 1: RiddarSvinet ( $101.62 ) Seat 3: egonoskill ( $111.56 ) Seat 5: vfrcbv ( $99.90 ) Seat 6: Firetribe ( $141.60 ) Seat 8: noiq3442912 ( $98.50 ) Seat 10: aprilryan ( $412.81 ) vfrcbv posts Small Blind $0.50 Firetribe posts Big Blind $1 Dealing cards Your cards A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [Firetribe] noiq3442912 raises $4 aprilryan folds RiddarSvinet folds egonoskill folds vfrcbv folds Firetribe calls $3 <font color="blue">Hero only calls because A) he thinks "play big pots in position, small pots OOP" and B) raising would probably fold the Ax hands that I get the most value from</font> Dealing Flop T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Firetribe checks noiq3442912 bets $6 Firetribe raises $26.50 <font color="blue">Villain makes his std cbet, Hero check-raises because that will discuise my hand better and I'll most likel take it down without completing my flush/straight</font> noiq3442912 calls $20.50 Dealing Turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Firetribe bets $70.50 <font color="blue">Ok he called my raise so I decide to push since his line looks weak and he might fold a better hand and I have good amount of outs.</font> [/ QUOTE ] Preflop: I like this play some of the time. I will rarely just flat call OOP with AK, but if choose to I will do it more often with AKs. But note that you should do this against over aggressive players who will overplay their top pair, or just bluff too much in general. This play also works well if you have kind of a crazy (or really weak) image, so that you can either induce a rebluff/get paid off light or just calldown (weak image line). Flop: I think your play is not very good. Ok, so preflop you call to disguise your hand, keep worst hands in and only look to play a big pot when you are a solid favorite (or villain does the betting for us and he likes to bluff as mentioned above). Think about our hand in terms of equity. Against many hands like 55/AJ/T9 for example we are a big favorite. Many of those hands will just fold the flop, so we win a decent pot BUT they don't make a mistake and we don't want fold equity against those hands. Fold equity can be a tricky concept, and this is a spot that illustrates it well. You only want fold equity against hands that have enough equity to continue (Qx, Tx, KK/AA, 6x of hearts). Against much worse hands than ours (than will usually fold), a raise is simply to protect our hand (or more correctly our pot equity). But OTOH we are not a big favorite by any means against hands that will be happy to be all-in on this flop such as 66/TT/QQ/AQ/KK/AA. Also we don't have fold equity against the types of hands that we want it against. Even hands like JJ/AT will often peel the flop at these stakes. So we either get it all-in as a slight favorite, or have him call and leave ourselves a pretty bad turn spot. Generally this is a bad result for our hand given the other options. So what should we do? I think check/call and leading out for a pot sized bet are both fine plays. By check/calling, we protect our equity in the pot (obviously we don't fold the flop), but don't put in too much money in and leave ourselves a spot with a lot of money in the pot and much worse equity on a blank turn. Even a K or A are not great cards for us against the range of hands that he is going to felt on a blank turn if there is only a PSB left. This way we keep the pot size small until we hit our 12 big outs, and then can jam the pot and usually get paid off. Also, if a K or A peels off we usually pick up more outs, but probably would still check/call since putting a lot of money in on the turn (when he raises) would be pretty bad, and we still don't have much FE against his range of strong hands. If a heart or J comes on the turn, I would usually just lead out, and lead the river. This spot is opponent dependent though obviously, sometimes you c/r turn or just keep calling and let them bluff of chips. Other option is to just lead the flop. Drawback of betting is that you lose his c-bet for when he has air. But a benefit is that many players will peel the flop with hands like 99/Tx or a complete bluff (to float) and then fold the turn, which is free money for us. Betting out also disguises our hand well, and we can decide on the turn what pot size we want to play. Finally, against a passive (or very cagey) opponent, we'd rather have the flop bet since they could check behind AT/JJ/KJ or even a weak Q for pot control. So overall we usually aren't going to be folding this hand before the river (exception might be turn is blank and he prices us out), but its important to think about how we want money going in. NLHE is about putting in money with an equity advantage (or getting people to fold when they have enough pot equity to continue).
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#604
08-31-2007, 01:08 PM
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Re: STTF SNG->cash thread
Isura, I don't really have a good agrument against your well thought out post and I suck at combo draws oop but...
c/c seems so weak with a hand that is never in terrible shape against any of his calling range. With money already in the pot, you don't really need fold equity with a hand like this (especially if you can get it all in on the flop). However, having some FE will increase the profitability of the hand. This is where it is ackward in a single raised pot. You certianly can't c/shove, that'd be over kill and scream draw. If the opponent was aggro, I'd really like a b/3-bet shove line here myself. If he simply calls, you are in the same position as if you c/c. You equity drops a lot on the turn, so getting in on the flop is ideal IMO. But, if he raises you, it's and easy shove for me.
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#605
08-31-2007, 01:17 PM
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Re: STTF SNG->cash thread
I'm not arguing that jamming flop is -EV. But I think both other options are more EV. Remember you won't have FE against strong hands like top pair or better here IMO. I'd much prefer to play this fast on the flop if the pot was bigger or he was prone to bluff, or he is bad enough to get it in here with stuff like T9. But if he is prone to bluff raising this flop, there might be more value in just calling a raise and then going for a turn check/raise (get that 2nd bet out of him, and he only has a few outs to improve to something that can call a turn c/r).
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#607
08-31-2007, 02:19 PM
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Re: STTF SNG->cash thread
Karp,
Does the turn feel awkward? Ending up on the turn with a good draw and a pot sized bet behind is kinda awkward. You know you have good alternatives to a c/raise on the flop. Betting can't be bad. Bet/3 bet all in is very unlikely to be bad. Checking and calling a reasonable sized bet can't be bad. Given a good read your line could be best (you could make up a few reads where that's true), but when you don't have a good read, just take a line that leaves you knowing for sure what to do the rest of the hand. I don't mind not 3 betting AK(s or o) out of position.
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#608
08-31-2007, 02:46 PM
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Re: STTF SNG->cash thread
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not arguing that jamming flop is -EV. But I think both other options are more EV. Remember you won't have FE against strong hands like top pair or better here IMO. I'd much prefer to play this fast on the flop if the pot was bigger or he was prone to bluff, or he is bad enough to get it in here with stuff like T9. But if he is prone to bluff raising this flop, there might be more value in just calling a raise and then going for a turn check/raise (get that 2nd bet out of him, and he only has a few outs to improve to something that can call a turn c/r). [/ QUOTE ] i agree w/ this, and if i was going to jam the flop i would b/3bet i think insted of c/r.
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