JTs - Dodgy pf 3bet but I flop the world.

Wolfram · #1 10-15-2007, 04:10 PM

Villains are basically loose/passive. Pf is probably not great but my question is whether I should bet the turn, and why?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (12 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Button bets, Hero folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Oink · #2 10-15-2007, 04:13 PM

I would just call preflop since BB isnt folding much anyways.

Folding would be ridiculous with 2 bad players around you.

As played I think I check the turn.

Fish likes their trips so you will be getting raised quite often.

Also, betting doesnt accomplish much IMO

Romulet · #3 10-15-2007, 04:17 PM

I cap the flop. 15 outs to the virtual nuts. Lets go.

Oink · #4 10-15-2007, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I cap the flop. 15 outs to the virtual nuts. Lets go.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should prolly reread the hand

Tryptamean · #5 10-15-2007, 09:24 PM

Yeah, that pf/flop action against LPs = you have zero turn fold equity

when you consdier that occasionally you will be drawing to one out means you should check

sethypooh21 · #6 10-16-2007, 02:57 AM

C/C turn, other than that, NH

Mitke · #7 10-16-2007, 08:09 AM

* grunch *

Interesting spot. This can be tainted by how the rest of the hand panned out as you didn't stop the action on turn.

In the heat of the battle I bet the turn still wanting to represent an A.

Stopping to think I might not bet:
- Neither villain can have an A or we are forcing ourselves to pay at least 2BB to see the river as an A will surely raise here, even a passive villain will.
- The board is pretty drawy so both folding is not too likely. They might fold a 9 but being loose they might hang on to the Q. It is therefore unlikely we'll get two folds.
- 3-barreling does not win us the pot too often vs loose villains.
- I don't think we have enough equity + folding equity + implied folding equity on the river to continue betting.

Gurravasa · #8 10-16-2007, 08:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would just call preflop since BB isnt folding much anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, some month ago you said you'd only call a hand like this from SB unless BB never folds, but here we only have a diffuse read that he is basically loose-passive. Do you think he'll never fold to a 3-bet on BB or that he just don't fold enough? Or is it because you think JTs is also not strong enough to 3-bet?

Oink · #9 10-16-2007, 08:38 AM

A little bit of both

We dont have great eq vs just the button

We practically have 0 FE vs button

We prefer BB to fold but considering the investment its better to just call as he wont fold much anyway. (Based on a vague read. I prolly put too much into that one)

Besides. We are all allowed to have a change of hearts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I have started coldcalling a lot more in the SB vs blind steals. In particular when my eq isnt great and BB is loose.

But the hands I started calling are mostly hands I would fold before. I still 3-bet when my equity+FE is good

If BB is tight I am never calling in this blind structure.

Gurravasa · #10 10-16-2007, 09:15 AM

off course you're allowed to change opinion but you bashed med really hard on this last time when I wanted to call a similar hand from SB and I think Mvoss and Jstill was on your side as well. Mvoss still has me on his ignore list since then [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway what if we had QJs in the exact same situation? I did some stoving and our equity doesn't change more than maybe +2% from JTs. Should you raise QJs?