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#82
11-20-2007, 11:44 AM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I can confirm that you are liable in civil and probably criminal court for setting a trap that results in death. I'm curious why Alex thinks otherwise. I would think everyone could agree is that lethal force is only justified to protect your life. An intruder killed by a trap usually doesn't qualify because the owner is usually well away. [/ QUOTE ] I would say lethal force is acceptable to stop theft depending on the value of what's being stolen. Stealing a loaf of bread = no. Stealing your grandmother's engagement ring = yes. [/ QUOTE ] What is the dollar value of the life that you are taking? You really want a society where we can say that stealing a few thousand dollars is worth death? [ QUOTE ] This isn't about that though. If someone wants to set traps in their home that's their business and if those traps happen to kill someone that's that person's fault for being somewhere they shouldn't, not the property owners. Where do you draw this arbitrary line? If I leave a banana peel lying somewhere in my home in the hopes that an intruders slips on it, busts their skull opens and dies, is that murder? If I get a guard dog and it mauls an intruder to death, is that murder? [/ QUOTE ] It's really not an arbitrary line at all. If you set a trap with the intention of harming/maiming an intruder you are responsible for the injuries to the same extent as if you were present and shot the gun. 
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#83
11-20-2007, 01:06 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
It's really not an arbitrary line at all. If you set a trap with the intention of harming/maiming an intruder you are responsible for the injuries to the same extent as if you were present and shot the gun. [/ QUOTE ] Surely this doesn't apply in all cases? I'm sure you agree that I have a right to defend myself? Do I have to actually wait until he pulls out a gun too? I'm not looking to get into a firefight, I just want to protect myself and my loved ones from an unlawful intrusion.
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#84
11-20-2007, 01:18 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It's really not an arbitrary line at all. If you set a trap with the intention of harming/maiming an intruder you are responsible for the injuries to the same extent as if you were present and shot the gun. [/ QUOTE ] Surely this doesn't apply in all cases? I'm sure you agree that I have a right to defend myself? Do I have to actually wait until he pulls out a gun too? I'm not looking to get into a firefight, I just want to protect myself and my loved ones from an unlawful intrusion. [/ QUOTE ] You surely have a right to defend yourself and your family. You usually don't have to wait until they pull out a gun. The standard is/should be whether you reasonably believed you or your family were in danger. Following that reasonable apprehenhension of harm, you can take reasonable steps to stop the threat.
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#85
11-20-2007, 04:35 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I can confirm that you are liable in civil and probably criminal court for setting a trap that results in death. I'm curious why Alex thinks otherwise. I would think everyone could agree is that lethal force is only justified to protect your life. An intruder killed by a trap usually doesn't qualify because the owner is usually well away. [/ QUOTE ] I would say lethal force is acceptable to stop theft depending on the value of what's being stolen. Stealing a loaf of bread = no. Stealing your grandmother's engagement ring = yes. [/ QUOTE ] What is the dollar value of the life that you are taking? You really want a society where we can say that stealing a few thousand dollars is worth death? [/ QUOTE ] "Worth" death? No. Acceptable to stop this? Maybe. And in the case of the engagement ring I made a point to use something priceless, not merely worth a few K. [ QUOTE ] If you set a trap with the intention of harming/maiming an intruder you are responsible for the injuries to the same extent as if you were present and shot the gun. [/ QUOTE ] So if I leave banana peels around my house in the hopes that any intruders will slip on one and break their neck and it somehow actually happens, I should go to jail for murder? Check!
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#86
11-20-2007, 04:42 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
"Worth" death? No. Acceptable to stop this? Maybe. And in the case of the engagement ring I made a point to use something priceless, not merely worth a few K. [/ QUOTE ] Again, where is the line? Is it only something "priceless." I think certain pictures of my children are priceless and I no longer have negatives or digital images of them. Should I be able to kill someone who attempts to take them? [ QUOTE ] So if I leave banana peels around my house in the hopes that any intruders will slip on one and break their neck and it somehow actually happens, I should go to jail for murder? Check! [/ QUOTE ] Maybe, maybe not. One of the (obvious) factors a court would look at is the foreseeability/likelihood of serious injury/death resulting from your trap. One of the many ways a spring-gun is very different from a banana is the foreseeability of injuries it might cause (really, probably the only way a spring-gun is different from a banana.)
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#87
11-20-2007, 05:15 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
Joe Horn = Best Neighbor Ever
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#88
11-20-2007, 05:30 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Worth" death? No. Acceptable to stop this? Maybe. And in the case of the engagement ring I made a point to use something priceless, not merely worth a few K. [/ QUOTE ] Again, where is the line? Is it only something "priceless." I think certain pictures of my children are priceless and I no longer have negatives or digital images of them. Should I be able to kill someone who attempts to take them? [/ QUOTE ] I would say yes. In ACland society would make the final decision on this though. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So if I leave banana peels around my house in the hopes that any intruders will slip on one and break their neck and it somehow actually happens, I should go to jail for murder? Check! [/ QUOTE ] Maybe, maybe not. One of the (obvious) factors a court would look at is the foreseeability/likelihood of serious injury/death resulting from your trap. One of the many ways a spring-gun is very different from a banana is the foreseeability of injuries it might cause (really, probably the only way a spring-gun is different from a banana.) [/ QUOTE ] Slipping and breaking your skull is a forseeable injury.
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#89
11-20-2007, 07:42 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I would think everyone could agree is that lethal force is only justified to protect your life. [/ QUOTE ] I would use lethal force to protect the life of someone else too and possibly to protect someone who was in the process of being raped or assaulted. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ]
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#90
11-20-2007, 07:46 PM
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Re: Joe Horn?
[ QUOTE ]
So if I leave banana peels around my house in the hopes that any intruders will slip on one and break their neck and it somehow actually happens, I should go to jail for murder? Check! [/ QUOTE ] Slipping on a banana peel (does that even happen outside of cartoons?) is almost never fatal so no, you would probably not be charged with murder. Attack dogs, maybe. If they're trained to kill and not just latch on to the intruder's arm like a police dog, I'd say pretty likely.
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