preflop raise?

[prodonkey]

Well normally whether to raise a hand preflop or limp, fold.. I look at things from an equity perspective on that street. A234 has 35% equity in a 5 way pot vs random hands.. obviously all these people don't have random hands though.

Giving 1 A3, 1 23, one some high cards.. you're still at 28% equity in a 5 way pot. So any raise is still +ev.. I think an important consideration here is that a raise could also buy us the button, and possibly even get it checked to us on the next betting round.

[Buzz]

Hi ProDonkey - Clearly A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is probably the best starting hand at the table and has a +e.v. before the flop. It's a premium hand!

Some people believe that's all there is to it.

Rightly or wrongly, at least in a fixed-limit Omaha-8 game against intelligent opponents who are trying to put you on cards in order to out-play you, whatever the stakes, I think there's more.

I like your line of play better in a Texas hold 'em game where fortunes do not change as much on the turn of each board card.

I also like your line of play better in a pot-limit game.

To each his own.

Buzz

[Olrik]

so basicly you do advocate sacrifying a (significant?) preflop equity edge in order to maximize your postflop edge?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
so basicly you do advocate sacrifying a (significant?) preflop equity edge in order to maximize your postflop edge?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - Exactly.

In a live limit game, unless you're playing idiots, you don't lose that much on the first round, and you easily gain it back on subsequent rounds when you actually do have an edge. (And when you don't, you lose less and can get out more easily). And that works better for me than raising on the first betting round whenever I have an edge. I think it depends a lot on your opponents.

There's more to it than just that.

There's also the deception factor in live games of seeming to be passive, because of play on the first betting round.

But if you follow my posts here, you'll see that I'm actually not passive at all - however it might seem that way to those who hastily jump to conclusions because of my generally rather passive play on that first betting round.

As an aside, I don't play Texas hold 'em that same way. However, I don't play Texas hold 'em much because Omaha-8 is simply a lot more interesting to me. When I do play Texas hold 'em or anything pot-limit, it's with a different emphasis on various poker principles.

But different strokes for different folks. Do whatever works for you and provides self satisfaction in your games.

Buzz

[Dismas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so basicly you do advocate sacrifying a (significant?) preflop equity edge in order to maximize your postflop edge?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - Exactly.

In a live limit game, unless you're playing idiots, you don't lose that much on the first round, and you easily gain it back on subsequent rounds when you actually do have an edge. (And when you don't, you lose less and can get out more easily). And that works better for me than raising on the first betting round whenever I have an edge. I think it depends a lot on your opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise you do give additional information about your hand but the players calling the raise also give away information about there hands as well. You can also limit the information you give away by adding a small percentage of hands you would not normally raise given the specific conditions to the groups of hands you do raise. Not raising because you don’t want to give up information seems short sighted to me. I mean you only have 3 options. Call, raise or fold and you are giving up one of thoughs…

I don’t think you have to sacrifice your pre-flop edge to maximize your post-flop edge they are not mutually exclusive. There are many reasons to raise pre-flop for value, to limit the field, to raise the stakes… compared to one reason for not raising. I’d like to hear other opinions on this.



[ QUOTE ]

There's more to it than just that.

There's also the deception factor in live games of seeming to be passive, because of play on the first betting round.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is seeming to passive inherently better the seeming to aggressive? I’ve never played live O8…

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising because you don’t want to give up information seems short sighted to me.

[/ QUOTE ]Short sighted???

[ QUOTE ]
the players calling the raise also give away information about there (sic) hands as well.

[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely. That's a principal reason to raise.

Dismas - Rightly or wrongly, on the first betting round, I raise or don't raise more because of the effect I think it will have on my opponents than because of whether I have a premium hand or not.

Playing in that fashion works for me and is a satisfying, interesting way for me to play. However, admittedly that style of play is more complex and more advanced than rote memorization of the premium hands and raising whenever you are dealt one, plus "adding a small percentage of hands you would not normally raise."

I assume you have read the entire thread, but if you have not, perhaps you are missing the overall picture.

However, do what works for you.

Buzz

[Dismas]

[ QUOTE ]
Some people believe that's all there is to it.

Rightly or wrongly, at least in a fixed-limit Omaha-8 game against intelligent opponents who are trying to put you on cards in order to out-play you, whatever the stakes, I think there's more.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

In a live limit game, unless you're playing idiots, you don't lose that much on the first round, and you easily gain it back on subsequent rounds when you actually do have an edge. (And when you don't, you lose less and can get out more easily). And that works better for me than raising on the first betting round whenever I have an edge. I think it depends a lot on your opponents.

There's more to it than just that.

There's also the deception factor in live games of seeming to be passive, because of play on the first betting round.


[/ QUOTE ]

The point I was not so eloquently trying to make was your raises should not define your hand. And there is room to value bet your hand pre-flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Dismas - Rightly or wrongly, on the first betting round, I raise or don't raise more because of the effect I think it will have on my opponents than because of whether I have a premium hand or not.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree you should always consider more then just your hand strength in deciding how to play your hand.


[ QUOTE ]

Playing in that fashion works for me and is a satisfying, interesting way for me to play. However, admittedly that style of play is more complex and more advanced than rote memorization of the premium hands and raising whenever you are dealt one, plus "adding a small percentage of hands you would not normally raise."


[/ QUOTE ]

I’m not smart enough to remember all the different premium hands by rote nor do I believe that is an optimum way to play O8…

[Gar Pike]

Here's another analogy. (or maybe it's like a simile, whatever)

Poker actions are used to elicit a response from your opponents. If you know your opponents, you can predict how they will react to your action. you can use that knowledge to string several actions together that will lead to their downfall.

Just like in fencing or judo, you string togeter a series of passes designed to get your opponent more and more off-balance or out-of-line, so you can then defeat him simply and with minimal effort.

But you have to know your opponents and how they tend to react, and you can't look at one move in isolation and ask "is this the best move?"

You have to ask "how will Ed react if I raise here, and if he does that, will he be vulnerable to this next move, or that one, and if I do this and he does that, then when I do the next thing, will that give me the result I desire?"

You can bet, bet, bet with 5678 rainbow and win the hand. I wouldn't do that very often, but when I do, you can bet that people are going to call, call, call, the next time I bet, bet, bet with the best starting hand and the 2-way nuts on the river.

You can also think of poker like a river. You do something at one point and something else happens downstream. If you know enough about hydraulics, you'll know what to do at point A in order to get result 1 to happen at point B. It's just not always the same river.

Anyway, I have a meeting to go to.

Regards

Gar

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
The point I was not so eloquently trying to make was your raises should not define your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Dismas - You were eloquent enough. My immediate reaction to what you wrote in the quote was "But they do."

I think there are fundamental differences between playing on-line and playing in a live casino. Part of our seeing this differently is a result of the difference between B&M casino and on-line play.

Of course I agree with you, that your raises should not define your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
And there is room to value bet your hand pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps that is true in your games.

I could be wrong, but I believe it's not true in my games if my opponents see my pre-flop raises as value bets. And unless I focus on my own cards more and my opponents less, it's hard for me to bet so that they don't. For me, it's a question of how much emphasis do I want to give to my cards at the expense of the considering the effect my action will have on my opponents. It's very hard to verbalize and explain this - and that's frustrating to me. I don't think we're looking at it from the same perspective.

Even if my opponents call a pre-flop raise, at least some of them are smart enough to be alerted to the possibility of a value bet, and they play accordingly.

However, although it is true that in some games I rarely raise before the flop, if I have somehow given the impression that I never raise before the flop, that is incorrect.

And the raise has some relationship to the cards I actually hold. But it isn't, rightly or wrongly, dependent on how good my starting hand is.

Some people ask the dealer to show my cards if I muck them at the showdown after seeing I am beat. They obviously want to know how I am playing. And when my cards are shown, those who didn't ask crane their necks to see. At least some of my opponents are clearly focusing on how I am playing my cards. And indeed I focus on how my opponents are playing their cards.

Room for value betting? I don't know. Maybe there is. When an opponent raises, depending on the opponent and my cards, I probably call with a hand I was planning to play without the raise.

But the pre-flop raise is always in the back of my mind as I play the hand and try to put my opponent on cards. And you're right - the calls of other opponents are also in my mind as I try to put them on cards. Both the raises and the calls give information for all but the maniacs.

But if there is room for value betting before the flop for you in your games, then go ahead and value bet.

Buzz

[1MoreFish4U]

"Some people ask the dealer to show my cards if I muck them at the showdown after seeing I am beat. They obviously want to know how I am playing. And when my cards are shown, those who didn't ask crane their necks to see. At least some of my opponents are clearly focusing on how I am playing my cards."

An unfortunate rule of poker.

I expect that if it were the 100s, duels would regularly be fougt at this poit.