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  #91  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:15 AM
DougShrapnel DougShrapnel is offline
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Default Re: This Thread Should Be a Perfect Example...

[ QUOTE ]
Procreation is a selfish act.

[/ QUOTE ] Acts of self interest are good. Simply put that is the reality of the situation IMHO.
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  #92  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:30 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: This Thread Should Be a Perfect Example...

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Do we agree there is no purpose to life?

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We do not. I don't even reject the possibility of an absolute purpose, but there is no reason a purpose has to be absolute.

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Human life evolved from an evolutionary process that started however it started. We are what we are.

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I don't think anyone disagrees that we are what we are.

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Having children is an act of self gratification that begins with a desire. We agree there is no reason to have children in and of its self.

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What do you mean "in and of itself?" That seems like a nonsensical approach to the question of motivation.

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There is no purpose to life, so why do we keep perpetuating said non-purpose.

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Many reasons, including the self-gratification you mentioned. Also compassion, which you seem to be ignoring.

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The whole idea of perpetuating the species is simply an absurd concept. Why?

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I'm sure different people have different reasons. For me, I think happiness and joy and pleasure and fulfillment have value. The best way to maximize these things and thus value is to maintain the human species.

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Perhaps we should work on a drug that inhibits this desire to propagate.

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You have given no reason for this. Just because you don't see a purpose in something doesn't mean that you must destroy that thing. Only if the value of destroying it is greater than the value of letting it be can you reach that conclusion. You have given no reason to believe that the extinction of the human race has any value. If all things are valueless (which I certainly don't believe but you seem to be claiming here), then everything is arbitrary. You can't recommend a course of action because all courses of action have the same value. Any argument you use to suggest that propagation has no value can be used to show that the absence of propagation also has no value. Therefore there can be no imperative to stop propagating.

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Why is the logical assumption biased towards the opposite of what I am suggesting?

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Assumptions aren't logical. Logic creates meanings from assumptions. It doesn't create (fundamental) assumptions. Those have to come from somewhere other than logic - whether it's math and axioms or motivation and emotions.

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I know this sounds ridiculous. But, is there a logical reason why it is not a good idea?

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There's no logical reason why it is a good idea. By suggesting it's a "good" idea, you're proposing that it's somehow superior to other ideas - and the onus is on you to support that.

Personally I think it's a bad idea because I value happiness and it removes happiness from the world.
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  #93  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:40 AM
MidGe MidGe is offline
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Default Re: Justify procreation, please.

[ QUOTE ]
After 88 posts, I hope it doesn’t degenerate into that. I am seriously trying to propose a concept that I have never seen discuss and determine if there is any logical reason against the idea.

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I am giving you some support here, RJT!

The facts (not ideas, vague hopes or whatver) is that I have had no children as a conscious decision based on what I saw/see life to be. My partners have shared this idea. At least, one very good friend, let our friendship lapse because I refused to be a donor for her pregnancy. The only answer I could give her for my lack of willingness to fulfill her wishes was that it would go contrary to all I experienced and understood, to participate in any way in bringing on another sentience to be.

Having said that I also added that I did not judge her decision, simply that I did not want to participate. I lost her, and her family friendship. By the way, she was assuring me that there would be no obligations at all on my part to be in any way involved with the life of her child.

Since then, she has had a child, is very happy, and I am still certain I did the right thing too.
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  #94  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:41 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: This Thread Should Be a Perfect Example...

Because there are clear communication problems here, I'm going to use poker terms. Presumably we, being on this site, have some understanding of the concepts laid down in ToP.

I'm in a hand of poker and I can raise, call, or fold. Raising is -EV. Calling is 0 EV, and folding (as always) is 0 EV. I choose to call. Then, you come in.

RJT: "Don't call, fold."
madnak: "No, I think I'll call."
RJT: "But calling has 0 EV. How do you justify calling?"
madnak: "Folding also has 0 EV, and I want to see the river. I'll call."
RJT: "But wanting to see the river is emotional! You have no logical reason to call."
madnak: "I have no reason to fold, either. So I'm going to call."
RJT: "Why is calling better than folding? You should fold. Calling is pointless, it has 0 EV."
madnak: "Folding is also pointless, and I want to call. There's no reason I should fold if I want to call."
RJT: "You should fold, calling is passé."

But I'm going to call. Unless you can explain why folding (not having children) is better than calling (having children), I have no reason to follow your advice. I'm perfectly justified in going with my preference and calling.

<font color="white">Actually, I'm going to fold. But who knows, I'm still young.</font>
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  #95  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:45 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Justify procreation, please.

[ QUOTE ]
1)The thread also mentions providing children with the joy of living

Don&amp;#8217;t have them and they won&amp;#8217;t know the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what matters. To continue with the analogy, having them is +EV. Not having them is 0 EV. Whether they know the difference is irrelevant. If I can choose to either bring joy into the world or avoid bringing joy into the world, I'll choose to bring joy into the world.

[ QUOTE ]
It wouldn&amp;#8217;t be cheaper to save your money and hire a caretaker at life&amp;#8217;s end? Or provide a new social network for us by not burdening the rest of society with schools and children&amp;#8217;s hospitals or prisons for our offspring?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps. It depends on the situation. Regardless, I don't think those options are really viable, and having relationships and companionship during senescence is important.

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3) And we could add things like propagation of the species

Not really much of a reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Says you. I think humans are pretty cool.

[ QUOTE ]
4)and the desire to leave a legacy

That&amp;#8217;s ego and self gratification again.

[/ QUOTE ]

So?
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  #96  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:56 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: This Thread Should Be a Perfect Example...

[ QUOTE ]
Simply put:

1)Procreation is a selfish act. (Let’s leave out whether selfishness is moral or not – that seems to be mudding the waters here.)

2)You cannot give the gift of life. To give there must be a receiver. You cannot gift to a non entity.

3)It is absurd to ask someone whether they would rather be alive or to never have lived

Is there any valid reason to procreate?

Basically my point is I don’t see how choosing it a makes logical sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already proved to you that 1) is false. Didnt you read my post about how awesome I am?
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  #97  
Old 11-06-2007, 02:00 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: This Thread Should Be a Perfect Example...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Simply put:

1)Procreation is a selfish act. (Let’s leave out whether selfishness is moral or not – that seems to be mudding the waters here.)

2)You cannot give the gift of life. To give there must be a receiver. You cannot gift to a non entity.

3)It is absurd to ask someone whether they would rather be alive or to never have lived

Is there any valid reason to procreate?

Basically my point is I don’t see how choosing it a makes logical sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes the valid reason is people want kids. You need to demonstrate that that desire (or following through on it) is immoral.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he recanted the immoral part.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's no difference between having them or not, its as easy (or difficult) to justify having them as not having them and neither is more selfless.

Can we justify dipping toast in our soft boiled eggs or should the eggs be put on the toast.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Or course the eggs should be put on the toast and eaten with a fork. Is this a trick question?

Now fried eggs require dipping.

[/ QUOTE ]
At Le Gavroche Restaurant (one of the finest in the world) I had boiled eggs with toast soldiers, dipping for the use of.

Kids not allowed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Dang, I'm wrong again. (But, should we really use the French as our metric? They did get the no kids part right, though.)



[/ QUOTE ]
ooh yes when it comes to food. French, Italian, Chinese, Anglo-Indian and Thai is just about everything.

but if the Great Chef (Albert Roux) hadn't had a kid to take over then I wouldn't have had the eggs and soldiers and ... damn must be something profound here.

chez
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  #98  
Old 11-06-2007, 03:07 PM
hitch1978 hitch1978 is offline
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Default Re: This Thread Should Be a Perfect Example...

haven't read the whole thread, but here's my 2c. Sorry if it's allready been covered.

1) Sex is fun.
2) Spending time with your kids is fun, for us and them.
3) Life is what you make of it, I am confident that I will raise children that will make it enjoyable.
4) You haven't really said anything in you OP except 'Life sucks so why force it on someone else, oh yea, except mine, I don't wanna lose mine.'
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  #99  
Old 11-06-2007, 04:37 PM
bocablkr bocablkr is offline
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Default Re: Justify procreation, please.

RJT,

What were you smoking when you posted this question?
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  #100  
Old 11-06-2007, 05:34 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Justify procreation, please.

RJT, if there is a God, why is procreation valuable? I just want a comparison point for your argument.
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