10-20 QQ vs. UTG limp rr

[Lefort]

I want Kirk to do an "In the Well".

[soah]

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Rob, I disagree with this completely, and in reference I'm going to use one of the best posts on poker I have ever seen

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at this point, I was expecting you to link to the hand where samo called some huge reraise preflop with KK and then folded on a dry flop... and his logic was about the same as what you're saying in your post ("he knows I have AA/KK here and doesn't expect me to fold it, therefore he has me beat")

everyone told him he was nuts though =p

[BobboFitos]

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Rob, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that he's limp-raising only AA/KK, I'm saying that once he gets called, he's not shoving all those other hands we're beating on the flop b/c it's sorta suicidal, so the bet is for value far more often than not, and the times we're a slight favorite vs a big draw and hold up will not offset the majority of the time we're far, far behind.


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I got it. I just think if he puts you on a strong hand his move is pretty dumb w/ anything he happens to have. Therefore, he's not thinking about what you have. Like... why not just bet 3/4 pot and shove the turn. this is the only line someone would consider folding. thus, i call

[mikech]

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jay loves to do ridiculous out of line stuff every once in a while

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qft. i call this.

[binions]

Jay starts the hand with 2100 in a 10-20 game. This is a bit of an awkard stack size UTG for AA-QQ + AK to make an initial raise. You can raise it 4-5xBB, hit top pair/over pair on the flop, bet 75% pot on the flop, bet 75% pot on the turn and still potentially face pot-sized heat out of position on the river with only one pair.

As Mehta and Flynn point out, 100-150xBB is prime territory for limp re-raising with these hands to get a better stack-pot ratio. Some players only limp-reraise with AA or AA-KK. Some have a wider range. Not knowing Jay, I would assign him a range of AA-QQ + AKs and maybe JJ-TT + AK-AQs.

Pushing our QQ preflop in response to his LRR is poor. We only get called by AA-KK and maybe AKs. Calling with QQ preflop is poor. An A or K flops 35% of the time. The other 65%, he has right of first action with a pot big enough that he is virtually guaranteed to bet it. We shouldn't be calling 400 preflop and then folding very often when QQ is an overpair to the board.

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source." Will we be folding the best of it occasionally? Yes. So what? As Kirkrr says "jacking up variance just to break even is a recipe for disaster."

If you can't learn to fold QQ preflop to an UTG limp-reraise from a good player, you are destined to get stacked over and over again with QQ when the preflop action strongly suggests AA-KK. Pretty fishy.

I have seen O'Conner fold KK preflop in the same situation, depending on the player. Folding QQ prelop is easy.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
Jay starts the hand with 2100 in a 10-20 game. This is a bit of an awkard stack size UTG for AA-QQ + AK to make an initial raise. You can raise it 4-5xBB, hit top pair/over pair on the flop, bet 75% pot on the flop, bet 75% pot on the turn and still potentially face pot-sized heat out of position on the river with only one pair.

As Mehta and Flynn point out, 100-150xBB is prime territory for limp re-raising with these hands to get a better stack-pot ratio. Some players only limp-reraise with AA or AA-KK. Some have a wider range. Not knowing Jay, I would assign him a range of AA-QQ + AKs and maybe JJ-TT + AK-AQs.

Pushing our QQ preflop in response to his LRR is poor. We only get called by AA-KK and maybe AKs. Calling with QQ preflop is poor. An A or K flops 35% of the time. The other 65%, he has right of first action with a pot big enough that he is virtually guaranteed to bet it. We shouldn't be calling 400 preflop and then folding very often when QQ is an overpair to the board.

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source." Will we be folding the best of it occasionally? Yes. So what? As Kirkrr says "jacking up variance just to break even is a recipe for disaster."

If you can't learn to fold QQ preflop to an UTG limp-reraise from a good player, you are destined to get stacked over and over again with QQ when the preflop action strongly suggests AA-KK. Pretty fishy.

I have seen O'Conner fold KK preflop in the same situation, depending on the player. Folding QQ prelop is easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

post needs more name dropping and/or authority-referencing for me to feel sure that it's valid. maybe throw in what sklansky would say?

[fslexcduck]

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jay loves to do ridiculous out of line stuff every once in a while, just plays quiet then makes moves way bigger than he needs to to show because he's bored and kind of weird.


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i agree with this sentiment from playing with jay as well.

i also think the fact that hero only has a bit over 100BB means he's much more likely to pick THIS spot to make some ridic all-in bluff since he wouldn't do it versus anyone deep stacked almost ever. i call this without much thought based on this alone.

[binions]

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As Mehta and Flynn point out . . .

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source."

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post needs more name dropping and/or authority-referencing for me to feel sure that it's valid. maybe throw in what sklansky would say?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got me.

I play 10-20 PLH/5-10 PLO round of each with O'Conner and others you have heard of like Carl McKelvey and Tommie Grimes et al. And I read the PNL book by Mehta and Flynn. These are some of my influences.

So sue me.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

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[ QUOTE ]
As Mehta and Flynn point out . . .

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source."

[/ QUOTE ]

post needs more name dropping and/or authority-referencing for me to feel sure that it's valid. maybe throw in what sklansky would say?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got me.

I play 10-20 PLH/5-10 PLO round of each with O'Conner and others you have head of like Carl McKelvey and Tommie Grimes et al. And I read the PNL book by Mehta and Flynn. These are some of my influences.

So sue me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've honestly never heard of mckelvey, grimes, or o'conner. not trying to flame you, just honestly am wondering who they are that you would think everybody's heard of them.

[binions]

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[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
As Mehta and Flynn point out . . .

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source."

[/ QUOTE ]

post needs more name dropping and/or authority-referencing for me to feel sure that it's valid. maybe throw in what sklansky would say?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got me.

I play 10-20 PLH/5-10 PLO round of each with O'Conner and others you have head of like Carl McKelvey and Tommie Grimes et al. And I read the PNL book by Mehta and Flynn. These are some of my influences.

So sue me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've honestly never heard of mckelvey, grimes, or o'conner. not trying to flame you, just honestly am wondering who they are that you would think everybody's heard of them.

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Back in 2001, before the internet boom, long time pros O'Conner and McKelvey were voted among the top NLHE and PLHE live action players in the world. They aren't tournament jocks so it's no wonder you haven't heard of them. Think of them in terms of Bobby Hoff.

http://www.cardplayer.com/author/article/all/10/6273

Grimes is in their class. Longtime pro but a bit more of a tournament jock. You can look up his results as E-Daddy on PokerStars.