kerpowski's minraise open

[BDaws]

Yeah, I suck at adjusting to things like this without help from the forum. I was spite calling light 3 bettors left and right when that first became common. What should I be doing in this spot?

Villain is a 2p2er that I have played with a little at 1-2 through 3-6. I don't think he would care if his name was outed, but I don't want to do anything out of line.

The small open made me feel terrible about getting 100 bb's in with AK, but calling seemed like it sucked as well.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($633.90)
Hero ($402.35)
UTG ($31.50)
MP ($777.70)
Button ($445.15)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $28</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $70</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $100

[catcher193]

&lt;3

[FlyingStart]

I have played you a decent amount and I think the minraise is very bad. IMO it's a gametechical error and a play that should only be used in very specific spots. Those could be stealraising in a tournament where everyone is playing supertight, or if you have AA/KK and want action on your hand (assume you are not too deep).

In a 100BBs cashgame the raise just has no purpose. You are not trying to see a cheap flop (limping leaves twice the amount of money behind for implied odds) and you are not trying to steal the blinds (of course you will sometimes, but when you are offereing 3,5-1 to the BB, he will tag along very often). In addition to this you leave yourself wide open to get attacked in all sorts of ways, esp when you raise UTG. It just puts you in so many bad spots. I remember when I played you I would CC your minraises with a ver wide range, and then usually 1-3 more people came along. If you have aces in that spot, you have essentially ruined the value of your hand since you can't do much but fold if you get alot of action.

You can say you make up for it the times you are reraised and can put in a 4bet, but I think that's bad too. It's basically the same as a limp-Reraise and that has been discussed alot and most agree that it's not a good strategy for 6max.

[kerpowski]

[ QUOTE ]
In a 100BBs cashgame the raise just has no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

To say this without any mathmatical analysis of the strategy seems lazy at best, ignorant at worst. Using terms like "the bb will tag along very often" without quantifying "very often" and relating that to the decreased amount I'm putting into the pot isn't analysis. Same with disregarding other benefits of the strategy (like the increased implied odds of small PP in EP pots) by dropping a general statement that "AA/KK suck in multiway pots with a lot of action".

There are many more advantages/disadvantages and adjustments (both by me and by people trying to counter this) than have been listed in this thread. The fact that my AA may make less in EP does not mean that holistically my EP range makes less.

That being said, as I mentioned above this strategy does not work as well in EP vs certain lineups. That doesn't mean it is technically incorrect, either in LP or in different lineups.

[True]

wow, min-raising pf is retarded.

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, dismissing huge lifetime winners' strategies is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

[king_of_drafts]

[ QUOTE ]
I have played you a decent amount and I think the minraise is very bad. IMO it's a gametechical error and a play that should only be used in very specific spots. Those could be stealraising in a tournament where everyone is playing supertight, or if you have AA/KK and want action on your hand (assume you are not too deep).

In a 100BBs cashgame the raise just has no purpose. You are not trying to see a cheap flop (limping leaves twice the amount of money behind for implied odds) and you are not trying to steal the blinds (of course you will sometimes, but when you are offereing 3,5-1 to the BB, he will tag along very often). In addition to this you leave yourself wide open to get attacked in all sorts of ways, esp when you raise UTG. It just puts you in so many bad spots. I remember when I played you I would CC your minraises with a ver wide range, and then usually 1-3 more people came along. If you have aces in that spot, you have essentially ruined the value of your hand since you can't do much but fold if you get alot of action.

You can say you make up for it the times you are reraised and can put in a 4bet, but I think that's bad too. It's basically the same as a limp-Reraise and that has been discussed alot and most agree that it's not a good strategy for 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the limp reraise is a bad analogy. Part of what makes limp-reraising so horrible is that nobody open limps at 6 max. If kerpowski was working open-limping into his game for some reason, I think a limp reraise would in fact be something to consider now and then, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Also, what is so bad about "the bb coming along a lot"? You have position, the lead, a small pot, and probably a better hand. Seems fine to me.

I was thinking the other day about how Negreanu minraises or raises to 2.5x all the time in tournaments, and he has had remarkable success lately. Perhaps the only reason we don't see him doing that on High Stakes Poker is because the stacks are much bigger than in a tournament.

Couple questions for kerpowski (if you feel inclined to answer them): if stacks are all 150bbs at the table do you still minraise open? 200bbs? And do you minraise from the sb if it gets folded to you (I'm sure this has come up between us but I forgot)?

Thanks a lot, by the way, for both introducing something unique to msnl and being willing to talk about it. I'm CrAbLaR btw.

[aejones]

thread is tl;dr but i want to say that i started opening to 25 in the msnl hu tournament while mz opponents were 3betting to the wrong amounts and opening to 30to 40, and i feel like it has been a monster advantge for me, and i häve discussed the merits of it with a few, but i think iäd rather open to 22 or 28 or something like picky tooth or 25 or just 30 like i do (primarily because iäm lazy) than the minraise

[trplthrt]

I think it is odd that anyone can dismiss an unorthodox approach if done with thought, intention and with reason. Isn't the whole challenge of playing optimal poker is by definition getting your opponents to make incorrect plays?

I think there are merits to any game approach that is done with the intention and analysis of inducing your opponents to make incorrect moves. This discussion is much better served as how to approach the next step in the open minraise concept than the minraise itself.

[carlosj]

players like this who are experimentng with their game and getting out of their comfort zone are generally the ones who will improve and get better.

If you play a looser pf style and want more room to make manuevers, raising less definetly has its merits.