Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[canis582]

Should we test people's intelligence when they are like 4 or 5 and kill the ones who won't be smart enough to win a nobel prize?

You are talking about eugenics here.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

How did we go from deportation to genocide?

You are correct....you are not articulate so you use the dishonest debate tactic called the "straw man" argument. You ignore my points, misrepresent my position, then attack that fictional position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

The only corrupt mind I see is yours.
You fear to address my arguments head on and in a honest manner. If you want to be more articulate, then educate yourself by reading. History books are an excellent source to see what policies succeed and which policies fail. Machiavelli wrote an excellent book on what policies are proven successful by history and which policies have proven to be failures.... The book is called "The Prince". Put down your Harry Potter books and read a REAL book a month for the next two years and then come and debate me...

Your feelings are not facts. Your feelings are unpersuasive. A two year old child is full of feelings but we don't base our national policy on that child's feelings....no matter how 'true' those feelings may feel to that child.

[canis582]

Felix, I agree with you. It would be best for our world if we 'deported' all superstitious (religious) people.

So you have no problem with Hitler's final solution to his 'jewish question', you just wish he would have deported them all to madagascar?

[BluffTHIS!]

canis,

Do you ever tire of intentionally distorting the views of others? Never mind I know the answer.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

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The muslim world conquered many intelligent people and intituions of learning. These intelligent people contributed to science not because of Islam but despite of Islam..... With regard to the Ottoman Empire, it was the Sultan's policy of encouraging Jews and Christians to immigrate and contribute to the muslim society. This was the main reason for the Ottoman Turk's success as oppose to other muslim countries. The muslim countries that punished their Jewish/Christian populations fell in to disaray very quickly....

Islam is a faith that is intolerant of radical ideas. Under the leadership of Islam, the muslim world has become a complete crap hole. You give the muslims more credit than they deserve. It is like seeing a poker player move all-in three times on gutshot str8 draw, hitting his draw three times, and declaring him a good poker player. Then when mathematics catches up to him and he loses everything, you ignore his bankruptcy and focus on his past glories. The dice of history are loaded against the ignorant. Islam has proven itself to be a corrupt and decadent belief system. Don't believe me, look at muslim world. When it comes to civlization and enlightenment, the Western culture rules. Especially the Anglo-Saxon culture.... Only the discovery of oil in muslim lands by Anglo-Saxons has kept Islam from collapsing into the impotent belief system that it truly is....

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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Do you ever tire of intentionally distorting the views of others? Never mind I know the answer.

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Perhaps Canis was the inventor of the straw man argument.
So there is no need for me to post the wiki article on the straw man argument.....AGAIN.

1% of time Canis will actually debate the issue head-on. The other 99% of the time, he uses strawman arguments and other kooky arguments. I've learned not to waste my time with him when he is in his kook mode. He is almost due to make his one coherent argument for this year. When it happens, then I can put him back on the ignore list and wait till Jan 2008.

[canis582]

Felix, you want to kill er I mean deport Muslims from land that they own. (not according to your bible, tho).

[Goater]

I really hope we dont get bogged down in this debate re whether Islam is conducive or not to learning, advancement, etc... or if Jews are intellectually more productive, etc... For what its worth, I believe that the Islamic world has produced some spectacular thinkers and has contributed greatly to humanity in the past. For a variety of extremely complicated reasons, not all due to the progression of Islam or the fault of muslims themselves, I think the muslim world in general is in a deep lull today - but that has not always been the case. The Muslim world was very different centuries ago and its not true that they stifled learning, didnt contribute to world knowledge and that they only advanced due to the influx of outsiders.

Re the deportation issue - virtually noone takes this seriously and its basically not going to happen. Despite huge problems inside Israel with its arab citizens (for which Israel must take a significant part of the blame), deportation is seen as an issue only a small lunatic fringe would consider. My hope is that one day in the future, when the Palestinians have a state of their own, the differences Israeli arabs have with other Israelis will be smoothed over. A resolution of the arab israeli conflict would certainly be a hugely beneficial thing for all the citizens of the middle east.

[Case Closed]

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I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

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Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

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Yeah, his statement is seriously messed up. The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma. If I remember correctly they created the number representation for zero. They had a profound effect on math and science.

[Zygote]

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but there is a huge difference in wanting to murder every last one. Palestinians are educated to believe - literally - that Jews are animals and intrinsically evil AND at the same time, schooled in violence and brutality.

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other than killing everyone, even though felix is a hair away from that conclusion, you can pretty much switch every instance of Jew and Palestinian in the above quote to make up the general view in this thread.


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Whilst distasteful, jokes between friends do not lead to the sorts of things the Palestinians have been doing.


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israel has done no harm?

israel is entitled to something, they aren't entitled to everything they want just because those influencing the government thought its their god given right.

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We are not talking of a few families teaching their children to murder - we are talking about official (goverment controlled) media and religius figures.

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oh the government of the non existent Palestinian state?

the official media doesnt have to be equal either. im not saying both sides are equal in crimes or distortion by any extent. both sides have dirty records on both counts though. im saying to over generalize either side is a big mistake.

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The number of people who would have supported his assasination was miniscule but, unfortunately, to be expected - there are insane people in every country. We are not talking of a few families teaching their children to murder - we are talking about official (goverment controlled) media and religius figures.

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insane people just become more popular in the state of society within the territories than outside them. arab culture doesn't help but no religious culture helps, including fanatical jewish culture. Fortunately Israel more secular.

aside, official figures in the US and israel have advocated horrible things.

you also seem to be saying that all arabs are responsible for the crimes of the few but this shouldnt be true for jews?

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Can you really be that flippant about the withdrawal from Gaza!? Do you really not understand how excruciatingly painful and divisive this was for the country? Families had been encouraged to live there by Labour and Likud governments since 1967. They believed they were doing their duty (some religious, some national, some both) to settle the land. Grandparents, parents and children were buried on that land where they had lived and worked for 40 years. Even for supporters of the withdrawal in Israel, it was an incredibly difficult event. How would you react exactly?


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I completely agree with you that this is tough. I was also wrong the way i seemingly generalized how the jews reacted as i was only referring to certain ones.

the problem with your analysis is you completely ignore the people on the other end but have full compassion for every israeli issue.

Palestinians dont react for no reason either, for the most part. israel has a lot to answer for.

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"bidding"? You speak like supporters of the likud party are mysterious evil masterminds! You sound exactly like someone who has uncritically listened to the propaganda. Also, religious beliefs are only a part of it - have you never heard of secular zionists - have you ever been to Israel?


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yes ive been to israel. i know of secular zionists and my grand father there is a prime example. either way, the politics have been heavily influenced by religious fanatics and a lot of the secular israelis are very pissed off about it. I also dont think they are necessarily evil masterminds. Many are just stuck in what they know and are so obsessed with certain parts of jewish culture and religion that they feel they are doing the world a favor by spreading their land.

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I never said that hatred dosnt exist on the Israeli side - of course it does. But your idea that Israel is run by religious madmen who see the murder of arabs as a righteous obligation is simply ignorant. Your 3 cousins are irrelevant - we are talking about a nation. You say that they believe that they should be "horrible" to arabs. Did they advocate the murder of innocent arabs? Have they done, seen or been encouraged to do this? Or do they just mean that the measures that Israel must take to defend its civilians are unpleasant but necessary, in their opinion?

They are also Israeli, therefore you cant really use the word "biased" to describe their views. They are not observers from the outside. Im sure that they dont like arabs. Most people wouldnt if they lived through the intifada when over a thousand civilians were murdered inside Israel, week by week and they had to join the army for 3 years at the age of 18 instead of going to clubs, meeting girls and travelling the world.

I apologise if my tone is harsh, but by the things you write, it seems that you really have a very superficial and naive view of the situation.

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for one im very supportive of israel. this thread is only revealing one side of my views.

i just dont think you a realizing that there is another side and they have very much of the same claims and its not like one side kills for zero reason and the other side kills only in compassionate selfless ways.